T-Bone

Warming up for the big chess game, the lone pigeon kept chanting "be the pawn...be the pawn...be the pawn."

thus spake Zarathustra Johnny Jump-Up

sorry - still sounds confusing to me

He also said “…I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses.” from page 175 of Whiteside’s "The Way Living in Love"… however after contacting the registrar’s office of the Moody Correspondence School in 1987, I found out they have no record of wierwille completing a course with them. letter from Moody Correspondence School registrar's office Yeah, let’s talk about the sin in his life that complicated things - wierwille was a pathological liar – that does really complicate things - Oh! What A Tangled Web We Weave When First We Practice To Deceive ! I’ve shared this document before along with some other comments: patchwork post 1 patchwork post 2 let's rephrase the question on this thread - is it okay to recommend the books of a pathological liar? PFAL = Prolific Fibs And Lies by victor paul wierwille

As unreliable as vp's intellect was - whether he was in fellowship or out of fellowship I know not - I'd feel more confident recommending the Magic 8 Ball to someone who is looking for answers: Magic 8 Ball, should I take that job in New York? Magic 8 Ball's answer: Ask again later All praise and glory be to Magic 8 Ball !

It looks more like he's setting up an order of priority rather than making a distinction how the info is received; the word of god has priority over reason- logic and spiritual truth has priority over facts of the natural world. Maybe that's where Chris G got his "look for the truth behind the facts" thing , I dunno I do get what you're saying though - but I would like to tie that into what I said - in II Cor. 5:7 we're told to walk by faith and not by sight; it doesn't say we're to walk by faith and not by reason. I'm of the opinion it's complementary - faith and reason, that is. Also in Isa. 1:18 Is God's invitation to our minds - come now let us reason together I know all the stuff about God's ways are higher than ours, blah blah blah - but still he chooses to come down to our level and engage us as the creatures of reason that we are. And one more thing I'd like to address - what is the difference between truth and fact? Philosophically truth is the aim of a belief system; but in a general sense what is true is also a fact; World War I began in 1914 - is that true? Yes - and it's also a fact.

I would have to agree with you on that, sir! I'm an old Roman Catholic boy (probably knew more Latin than Bible stuff) and never developed any critical thinking skills until after I left TWI.

Following thru on my previous post - vp Rightly dividing the Bible? Yeah that's a joke ! As far as vp being capable of rightly dividing it or cutting it straight or accurately handling the interpretation of the Bible - not by a long shot if you consider any of his mangled redefinitions of biblical Greek words (you know he lied about taking Moody Bible College correspondent courses of biblical Greek ) as well as his crimes against logic or any academic discipline. ... So - There's enough red flags in vp's stuff to warn any reader that does not have the i-love-"doctor"-wierwille-blinders on - - so that they can see thru his charade. I think the best vp could do at "cutting it straight" was to cut and paste - in other words- his plagiaristic tendencies to cut it straight out of other folks' work - run it thru the vp-annihilate-source-and-context-and-original- author's thought process -machine (aka vp's thing called a brain) and then cobbling it altogether in one hybrid hodge podge of nonsense - which he often referred to by his favorite pet name "the word".

Well, it’s been a few years since I’ve given much thought to the Advance Class material – but I think I remember vp saying something along the lines of the Bible being written revelation. Which makes me ask – what’s the diff between written and direct revelation? And your reference to “rightly dividing” of II Timothy 2:15 being the equivalent of analyzing I think there’s a slight difference. The NASB translates the phrase as “accurately handling the word of truth” – keeping in mind Paul’s trade of leatherwork and tent making and that he’s writing to other teachers (see verse 2 - faithful men who will be able to teach others also) – in my opinion, what Paul had in mind was the required precision of a skilled tradesman working in his field of expertise. Yes, I would think a skilled tradesman has good analytical skills to properly execute the tasks at hand - which the context of II Timothy 2 seems to be over “cutting it straight” (or accurately handling) as a teacher - as one offering an interpretation of the scriptures to others. I understand what you’re saying about vp’s ways of encouraging people to think – yeah but he tended to slip in some doubletalk here and there so as to gum up the works and actually thwarts any critical thinking. For example check out what he says in the chapter Are You Limiting God? pages 23 & 24 of The Bible Tells Me So: “…We have been so schooled to revere the knowledge that comes to us through our five senses that we fail to recognize the knowledge that comes from the higher realm, the spiritual, where the Word of God, and not reason, has first place. Both realms or worlds are here: the natural world is factual; the spiritual world is true…The truths of the spiritual world are absolutely not dependent upon the senses, but rather on the spirit from God in man.” (end of excerpt) Maybe I’m reading too much into it – but it seems to me vp is pitting the Word of God - spiritual knowledge - against reason…against the five senses. I don’t think vp is “cutting it straight” on any of that stuff! It makes no sense – oh, that’s right - I forgot, my reason does not have first place – too bad, I lose.

Thanks for that Steve Lortz quote, WordWolf! His reference to page 83 of the PFAL book got me to thinking of wierwille’s variegated mind-numbing drivel throughout his books…one of a gazillion reasons why I won’t recommend any of his stuff. I looked at that page today and lo and behold something occurred to me that I never thought of before – but I bet some Grease Spotters have – ok so I’m a slow critical thinker…anyway - quoting PFAL now, page 83: “Let’s see this from John 5:39 “Search the scriptures….” It does not say search Shakespeare or Kant or Plato or Aristotle or V.P. Wierwille’s writings or the writings of a denomination. No, it says, “Search the scriptures…” because all Scripture is God-breathed; not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed; not what Calvin said, nor Luther, nor Wesley, nor Graham, nor Roberts; but the Scriptures – they are God-breathed.” (end of excerpt from Power For Abundant Living, by Victor Paul Wierwille, co. 1971, American Christian Press, New Knoxville, Ohio) Typically I’ve cited this wierwille quote to show how he was placing some of what he wrote on par with scripture. But since I’ve left TWI and quit self-medicating my brain with wierwille’s nonsense so many questions pop up. Like, ok I get it all scripture is God-breathed – that’s easy – no guess work; but only some of wierwille’s writings are God-breathed. Which parts? How do I identify which parts are God-breathed and which are not? Maybe he should have put the God-breathed portions of his writings in red ink – you know, like what they do in some Bibles with the words of Christ in red – this way whenever vp spoke ex cathedra you’d know for sure. No need for guesswork or further analysis. (fyi: just because i used a bold red font when quoting PFAL does not mean those particular portions of the book are God-breathed ) Speaking of analysis – I remember another of vp’s intellectual sedatives – probably from the Advance Class – he said something like spiritual knowledge cannot be analyzed only ascertained. Wow that’s a doozy ! Kinda of funny though – he said just the opposite of that in the PFAL book pages 70 & 71 (the chapter on The God-breathed Word) “Men are prone to use figures of speech haphazardly, but in the Word of God figures of speech are used with divine design. Each and every one of them may be accurately catalogued and analyzed with precision. There is absolutely no guesswork.” (end of excerpt from PFAL) Think about it – if all scripture is God-breathed I would assume then it’s spiritual knowledge. Yet vp said spiritual knowledge can’t be analyzed. Think about the definition of analyze - examine methodically and in detail the constitution or structure of (something, especially information), typically for purposes of explanation and interpretation. analyze Maybe it’s just me but I find it a little ironic that the intermittent-god-breathed-writer…religious blowhard…or whatever you wanna call vp – plagiarized the crap out of one prolific writer whose forte was detailed analysis of the Bible – E.W. Bullinger - most notable Bullinger's Companion Bible and Bullinger's How to Enjoy the Bible Let me set aside for a moment the huge plagiarism issues throughout his body of work. vp did more – much more than just steal other folks’ work and ideas and pass them off as his own. He had a weird knack for amalgamating several disparate strains of thought from Christianity, fundamentalism, Gnosticism, materialism/prosperity theology, magic, and who knows what else. but he could really whip up some great contradictory claptrap though....And yet, recalling my 12 years of involvement with TWI, the general attitude of myself and any other way-believers i knew - about vp’s body of work was that it was all considered God-breathed…and you could turn off your critical thinking too…after all spiritual knowledge can’t be analyzed. yeah right

Sure Mike - I have no beef with you...but if you feel you've committed the unforgivable foible perhaps you should seek professional help.

"Foibles" - a minor weakness or eccentricity in someone's character; a slight flaw. definition of "foible" Hey my post is for anyone in or out of TWI that still considers vpw in the same category as those who sincerely try to follow Jesus Christ. I just wanted to point out in this post I quoted the use of the word "foibles" by Mike as lingering evidence of one of the many virulent strains of vp's insidious doctrine and practice whereby vp could justify his own licentious lifestyle, diminishing the gravity of sin, cloaking his hypocrisy, while at the same time subverting the lordship of Jesus Christ and countermanding the moral demands of scripture in the true followers of Jesus Christ. vp's "foibles" are actually in a category of life-dominating sins - certainly not minor character flaws as some would have us believe; to "attain" that status one has to be a willful, premeditating, recurring offender in one or more types of sin - to which the person "earns" the title adulterer, liar, thief, etc. You can read all about vp's abuse of power and how he used his licentious twisting of scripture in "Losing the Way" by Kristen Skedgell - she was in vp's way corps training program. Losing the Way - - -at Amazon

Ok - I get it - you think that you and vpw are above the laws of our land… AND since you seem intent on siding with wierwille the unabashed plagiarist, pathological liar and glory-grubbing thief AND you have NOW openly stated you are willing to take the consequences of your choice Then you should not complain like it’s a personal attack on you when someone criticizes the unscrupulous methods of the aforementioned unabashed plagiarist, pathological liar and glory-grubbing thief (aka wierwille).

Being that you have such a flagrant disregard for the laws against plagiarism- I guess I shouldn't be surprised you have your own laws of logic too.

You can believe whatever fairytales you want about super-plagiarist vp; keep in mind a lot of other folks have taken off the vp-blinders and have realized he is more like kinfolk to false prophets

I'm sure vp's adultery did make some waves in his old church and all the production details, collaborators, financial backers etc still does not justify plagiarism- in fact, I would think that might make all involved as accessories to the crime - but I guess the copyright lawyers should hash all that out ha those old articles ! vp craved recognition as long as it was positive; but geez whiz - what if it became common knowledge he hijacked the Jesus movement too- the lying thieving weasel he stole that too!

Publishing and filming are not the same thing as marketing - or in other words - what audience is it released to... the open market or some two bit obscure cult following

Probably because vp chose to hide his plagiarism in obscurity - so the rightful owners of the intellectual property never found out - I did mention earlier that's probably why vp's books were only sold to a closed market - i.e. Students of PFAL

feschrift ? or did you mean covfefe - which is Russian for zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

look at page 188 of How to Enjoy the Bible by Bullinger - also i provided a link below where i referred to same reference on a doctrinal thread... as far as vp's way of handling the interpretation of scripture - look at the PFAL the section on the Bible interprets itself. that goofy idea alone - that the bible interprets itself is laughable ! what an insult to intelligence....and totally nonsensical since we're talking about a book that was written in several different languages and spans an enormous time period, several cultures, etc. link to doctrinal thread where i quoted from Bullinger

I said vp's unabashed plagiarism was one of a multitude of reasons why I would not recommend his books another issue with that - is that - whether due to vp's incompetence or intentionally twisting others works - often his conclusions - or how it put it altogether was a gross distortion of what the original authors intended to say. for instance in copying Bullinger's stuff one of the things vp misunderstood was understanding the various ways of how one can gather the meaning of a passage. Bullinger also stressed the reference in Peter that no prophecy of scripture is OF any private interpretation- refers to the origin of scripture and does not prohibit a person from attempting to interpret the verse for themselves; vp twisted that around to mean no one should attempt to interpret the Bible. I think his problem was that he was incompetent AND intentionally twisted scripture for his own agenda.

I think this thread has been a thoughtful discussion by all participants; speaking for myself – Mike, please try not to let your imagination run wild or allow some persecution complex to distort what others have said. I believe in calling a spade a spade and so I’ll refer to something by its appropriate name. If I call vpw a plagiarist – which is true according to all literary and legal standards – except yours – please do not take that as a personal attack or that I’m trying to nail you. Plagiarism is only one of a multitude of reasons why I don’t think it’s ok to recommend vpw’s books. “Is it ok to recommend wierwille’s books?” is the question that started this thread and folks have responded, giving reasons why they think it is ok or it’s not ok to recommend his books. If you would like to draw an analogy with a target and bulls-eye – there should be two targets – one is the pros of recommending wierwille’s books and the other is the cons of recommending wierwille’s books. Honestly, I would have to say there have been a lot of bulls-eye shots on the cons target. Don’t see a whole lot happening on the pros target. Mike, check your ammunition – I think you’re firing blanks.

i agree - i still use it - uhm... with the proper reference to my source, of course i think i got mine from Christian Book Distributors - either that or maybe a local christian book store back then - not sure now - i did get a lot of stuff from CBD though...mostly use Amazon now Christian Book Distributors Dake's on Amazon

Dake's sure made it easy to put together a teaching since it conveniently enumerated items of a particular topic - like 9 things God has done for us, 16 signs of a false minister, etc.

Thanks for sharing your story, Old Skool - so interesting ! yet another eye-opener on vp's plagiarism - great stuff; reminds me while i was in residence at Rome City i came upon a book in the campus library Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, co. 1963 by Finis Jennings Dake. I enjoyed looking thru it so much i later purchased a copy once i was out on the field in my corps assignment - which is also about the time i left TWI and was starting to accumulate commentaries and books on theology and biblical languages; i was a bit of a bookworm back then; anyway at some point in my studies of trying to analyze vpw's doctrine from alternate resources and not TWI material - it occurred to me vp lifted stuff from Dake's too! ....Dake's has a lot of lists in side columns surrounding a particular passage .