T-Bone

Well, that's a lost cause right there. PFAL had too many holes in it to begin with – what are mothballs gonna do? LOL Nottawafer – taking it from the top of this page: post # 21 – "homosexuality", post # 22 – "homosexual woman", post # 23 –"Eve as a lesbian" & " Lilith theory", post # 24 "Eve & the devil as a lesbian", post # 25 "not real familiar with how the lesbian thing works", post # 26 "tree really meant penis", post # 27 "threesome fantasy" & "Lilith myth", post #28 "Eve is a lesbian" & " his wife's involvement with Rosalie"; and finally the piece de resistance - post # 33 "homonym" and "Greek".. . this has been a classic example of "poster buildup" [you may remember that from the foundational class]. That should answer your question – but you're really not supposed to ask any questions until the end of the class.

That's a keen observation Penworks! And I'm glad you are courageous enough to keep talking here. All I've got to say about my days as the class clown is – you ain't been slapped until you've been slapped by a nun! .. . uhm .. . we don't have any nuns here do we? :unsure:

It's always fun to read how Way-speak gets exposed here - folks using critical thinking skills & normal intellectual standards. There's obviously two different ways to define research. There's the world's way – which ideally is a systematic process to discover, analyze & establish facts. And then there's Way-world's definition of research – a systematic process [TWI-sanctioned methodology] to re-discover, re-absorb & re-establish PFAL. The expanded literal definition according to usage of "research" reads as follows: repeated searching of TWI's teachings, which includes scriptural references [sorry - KJV only! all other versions don't count - unless allusion is made to "the original" by way of an expressed desire that others could see it] along with TWI's interpretation of said references, so as to establish beyond a shadow of a doubt the veracity of PFAL. Abbreviated definitions of "research" that are also acceptable: "working the Word to make it your own" and "mastering PFAL".

oh what a precarious web we weave when there are no super powers up our sleeve

Great post, Old Skool! There's such an abundance of passages in the Bible that address the art of deception and especially through the twisted use of Scripture. Three that come to mind right off the bat are Romans 16:17-19 where Paul warns of deceivers ensnare folks by their good words & fair speeches cause division & offences contrary to sound doctrine. Another – is the fairly long section of II Peter chapter 2, describing the modus operandi of false teachers . And third a general reference to highlighting the lure deceivers use – handling the word of God deceitfully [iI Cor. 4:2]. The idea of using the Bible as bait for a trap is intriguing to me – and imho after much consideration of this trick, have concluded that Jesus Christ is nothing more than a lure in PFAL. Or to put it another way – Christian symbols & Bible talk in PFAL are like the window dressing of a storefront that has no such genuine items in stock. It's false advertising – in this case "bait & switch". I get a kick out of your last line That's how I feel too. I find great humor in some of the weirdest things – there's a poster I came across awhile back – loved it so much that I bought a small picture frame version of it and it now sits on a book case. It has a picture of the hull of a sunken boat sticking up out of the water – with these words under it "It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others" I have to mention that I've gotten in the habit of mentally adjusting the statement to more accurately reflect how I feel about my present status and even my involvement with this website – so it's: ONE OF the purposes of my life is to serve as a warning for others when it comes to garnering valuable lessons out of the remnants of any bad decisions I've made in life. It's from a series of demotivator posters at despair.com. My wife turned me onto them – there's some other great ones there too. At my previous job when it came to my circle of friends at work - I was very open about my former involvement with a cult. I had that demotivator mini-poster on my desk. Most folks got a kick out of it – except for one very religious fella – who indeed always gave me the hardest time over anything with the Bible in the usual spiritual snobbish style of a Bible-know-it-all. I guess it royally threw him for a loop how I could see the humor in something so life-sucking & entangling as spending time in a cult.

Penworks, I was going to say this is a very timely thread but the more I thought about it – this thread touches upon something so basic & ever-present that we forget about it or it simply becomes invisible - - the human condition. I liked Thurman's quote from Einstein – the essence of which resonated with me - though individuals, we are part of a whole; but we each experience thoughts, feelings, etc. within ourselves; this delusion of separateness desensitizes us, becoming like a prison with limited range of awareness to others beyond the close proximity of our prison bars. I think psychologist Larry Crabb addressed this topic in a few of his books ["Inside Out" is the one I like the most] - I just wanted to throw that in the mix as one Christian's angle on this. His basic premise being we were designed to be social creatures – but through the fall of man, this as well as so many other aspects of human beings has been screwed up and continues to compound problems as we interact with others through a predominantly self-centered focus. I enjoyed Thurman's story of the seeker – who finally got his answer in the vision through his act of compassion – reaching out way beyond the prison bars to touch another in desperate need – the point being we need compassion to recognize love. I did say this was a timely thread – for me anyway. I get these realizations every once and a great while at Grease Spot – and probably should review topics like this on a routine basis. Recently on another thread, after making several looooooooooong posts about my opinions of TWI, another Grease Spotter's comment got me to look outside my tunnel-vision.. . and there lo & behold before my eyes was COMMON GROUND! This realization made enough of a penetration through my thick skull as to get me to see the beauty of Grease Spot's diversity. But at the same time – the common ground that I so often am blind to – it reminded me of our connectedness and helped to make civil discourse possible.. . Oh my, another looooooooong post – sorry, hopefully you can fish something relevant out of my 2 cents. :blush:

Would Scooter happen to be a BLACK cat? :unsure:

Today would be a good day to take in a movie - uhm.. .anyone for "2012"?

Uh oh - today is Friday the 13th! I'm not worried though - I'm carrying my lucky rabbit's foot. But I've been giving that some more thought lately - this foot came from a rabbit that wasn't so lucky - or why else would I have his foot. Maybe I should switch to a lucky astrology mood watch.Wonder if they're as accurate as an atomic clock.

Penworks – great article – the part about fundamentalism & TWI and the baby/bathwater/TWI's idea of research resonated with me. Since I left TWI I've picked up a hobby of reading different systematic theologies. One of the major differences between my ol' stupefying "alma mater" and a decent systematic theology is the lack of honesty & humility in TWI's theology. humility - Besides analyzing the biblical data, a good systematic theology will explore historical and philosophical resources. What did Luther say about this or that – or what did others say - Calvin, Augustine, the early church fathers, Aquinas, Kant, Kierkegaard, Barth, etc. – how did they interpret the passage or view the subject? Humility is what enables us to learn from others. I think it was Sir Isaac Newton who said something like "if I've seen farther than others it's becasue I've stood on the shoulders of giants." honesty - Being upfront about the process of developing a theology is a big deal in my book. vp had this dubious "the Bible interprets itself" thing going on [a premise I find absolutely absurd now] partnered up with the desire to pronounce "thus saith the Lord" on everything. Whereas, the systematic theologies I like are straightforward in their approach of a subject – after detailing the technical data [original languages, grammar, syntax, etc.] they usually convey to the reader in one way or another when they're stepping off into a more cerebral territory – getting into deductions, inferences, implications, extrapolations & speculations. I've made the point on another thread about vp in PFAL suggesting what he wrote was God-breathed - distinguishing himself above theologians folks are familiar with - a double whammy lacking honesty & humility for sure. Imho I think the intellect is the number one research tool in any field – the mind being the navigator in charting out the explorer's map. The way I see it now, I joined TWI and they handed me a theological map – it had one little island with the capitol being New Knoxville – surrounded by a large body of water with "here be dragons" written everywhere. Currently my theological map has me on a peninsula – and there's lots of places with interesting names "I don't know", "Not sure", "Maybe", "Probably", "Could be Related", "I don't believe that", "This may have something to do with God", etc., these names are penciled in and I may never commit some to ink. I don't worship the Bible anymore either – but view it as a means to an end – knowing God. ~~ Tzaia – great catch on the contradictory statements of research! Spectrum – I love the session 5 class leader question/your answer incident! That's so funny & clever. Wish you had 2 cameras rolling at the time – one on the class and one on the class leader. I'm thinking we could whip something up that would go along the lines of Tzaia's observation. We'd make a documentary from it – with a split screen and narrative voice-over by James Earl Jones, saying "Now on the left screen we see the enjoyable reaction of the students to a new and humorous way of presenting Greek definitions. On the right we have a seasoned grad's response – notice that the theologicalsclerosis is in an advanced stage. Even when presented with familiar TWI-sanctioned material but in a new format, the seasoned grad exhibits a distinctly negative reaction. Take note - the effectiveness of theological hardening by TWI's imposed dogmas evidenced in this footage does not represent an extreme case - but a typical case."

The bloodhounds from hell?

Excellent post, Tzaia! And there's something I find so ironic - that which was such a threat to TWI's homogenization process - is really an unlikely "unifying" factor here - diversity! Some might recognize it by its other name - "freedom"! Addressing the control freaks at TWI HQ: "Ain't payback a bi +ch ?!"

Great thread Old Skool - I never tire of this topic. More toward my latter years of involvement, "blaming the Adversary" seemed like it had become such an entrenched mindset for most folks. I remember in my first Advanced Class vp remarking about the Big Thompson Canyon flood in Colorado was typical of how the Adversary always kicks up his heels around an Advanced Class time. When used out in the field - I think of it as a wonderful diversionary tactic to confuse followers and get them to focus their attention elsewhere - especially useful if there's some kind of scandal or anything to jeopardize a leader's good standing with the masses. I remember in the branch I was in - a year before we went into the Family Corps - I had a lot of responsibility along with a few others in assisting the branch leader. He and I had our own businesses and we would occasionally share employees if one or the other had a slow period or heavy work load. Most of the employees in my company were Way believers. First there was some "murmuring" in the ranks - rumors of this guy being dishonest or a little bit shady with how he paid workers & mooched off others. He put the kibosh on that with a series of teachings on how murmuring was off the Word. But as things began to escalate with a louder buzz among "the masses" about his dishonesty and mooching - the area coordinator stepped in [actually one of the good guys in my book] and worked with our "inner sanctum" of branch leadership to resolve the issues: his solutions being basically removing the guy from power and advising me to quit walking around with "a video camera on my shoulder" [his words] [Hey, I was just doing my part in being the eyes & ears of the church ]. You know, after the dust settled - the guy would still talk to me about how the Adversary orchestrated the whole thing as an attack on his ministry & the integrity of the Word. Yeah, right. This diversionary tactic "appeared" again in the aftermath of Passing of the Patriarch reading. This was probably one of the biggest things to jar my head into awareness & alarm, fuel my ever increasing questions and actually helped me make a decision to leave that stupid crapstorm:"Ignore the facts - look for the truth behind the facts", .. . and of course the ever popular:"the real issue here is the integrity of the Word being under attack by the Adversary". Yeah, right - now where have I heard that before.<_<

Cool, Clay. Grease Spot is certainly a unique blend of diversity in beliefs & opinions. And as much as I enjoy that thought provoking aspect of this place - it's also nice to find some common ground within our "splinter group". Yo ! A round of cappuccino - er.. . uhm.. .or whatever floats your boat - and a toast to diversity

No prob, Clay – I can say the same thing about your responses sounding awfully familiar – indeed repeating vp's logic & rhetoric to minimize or confuse moral issues [as I pointed out earlier of hearing vp's same peculiar twist on Balaam as well as on David's sin]. Sorry about the long posts – I do tend to get verbose – but ya know, sometimes it does take awhile to explain why a certain interpretation of Scripture is erroneous or to expose a faulty line of reasoning or hidden assumption. My goal is not to have you come to the same conclusions as me or anyone else. As Bolshevik said, there's others here that share your view of the time table. Threads are an exchange of ideas and a sharing of opinions - even differing opinions. Hey, if we all thought alike - then more than likely no one is really thinking. There's no big heavy concerns driving my dialog with you – just some curiosity over where you're going on threads. Hey, this has been a civil discussion and I enjoy the freedom to chime in with my 2 cents – unfortunately that won't go very far in today's economy but it does make for longer threads. Anyway – see you around Grease Spot – love & peace T-Bone

What part of explaining how the PFAL-colored glasses work did you NOT understand? Also what part of biblical directives do you NOT understand where Christians are warned to beware of false prophets, wolves in sheep's clothing, false teachers and their toxic doctrines – it's covered quite a bit by Jesus in the gospels and of course in the epistles. So with regards to those misunderstandings and/or ignorance on your part, I'd venture to say one of the "distinguishing" differences between you and many folks here is your imaginary timeline of when the evil set in. Do you realize this time table is based on your assumptions. Many folks here have experienced the same things you have - but now when they look at certain things they see something different - whether it's facts or personal incidents. One doesn't need to be a genius to figure this out. May I suggest you re-examine some of the seemingly harmless little details in TWI books - that's as good a place as any where to start - look at some documented facts - what did vp & others put in writing?! These are readily accessible facts that are endorsed by TWI no less! Facts you can read - with or without the PFAL-colored glasses – you can read them either in your PFAL books & TWI endorsed stuff [like "The Way Living in Love"] or read excerpts from them here on Grease Spot [where they're cited on some threads in conjunction with exposing the erroneous doctrine & faulty logic] - some of these facts provide a pretty clear idea of what TWI is all about evgen from the very beginning. Perhaps you didn't give full consideration to the implications and practical consequences of certain things accepted by all true TWI followers. I'm not even suggesting you get into re-examining TWI doctrines & practices - I'm just wondering if you've ever noticed what a dubious basis TWI was built upon. And usually folks start seeing holes in the doctrines & practices once they see the only thing that gave them credence was the grand assumption that vp was THE man of god for this day and time and hour. That is a subtle undertow belief which overpowers the critical thinking skills of grads who fall for his initial charade of impersonating a minister of God or some "master" theologian. The thinking that one can separate the bones from the fish, the good from the bad, Bible truth from destructive doctrines ignores the seriousness of such a futile endeavor. As I mentioned earlier of Scripture directives - one need only recall some of the most scathing rebukes by Jesus were toward certain religious leaders, with their twisted interpretations of Scripture, the permeating nature of the leaven of their doctrine and their hypocrisy - and even more so of setting themselves up as examples to follow. Jesus did not say to throw out the Scriptures - but He did warn Christians of the entangling destructive power from the misuse of the Scriptures by such supposedly religious men!.. .Perhaps ignoring all that does grant a little "peace" to the mind - after all - it's uncomfortable to think about the possibility that one was involved in something as bad as what Jesus so often warned us about. Anyway - check out what vp said or what's said about him - in his own words. Look past the Scripture thrown around and take a closer look at what vp says to sell his point or what is said to sell people the persona of THE man of god. Once you take out the reader's assumption of vp's direct hot line to God almighty - you'll begin to see more of his incompetent handling of Scripture, twisted logic, made-up definitions and absurd rhetoric. It just may occur to you that the evil was there since the inception of TWI, since it was founded by a deluded egocentric liar who claimed he heard the audible voice of God, claimed God taught him everything he taught to others and that he believed the stuff he wrote [PFAL and the rest of his books] was actually God-breathed. These are facts! Statements in print! I don't care if one has the PFAL-colored glasses on or off – that's just what's written in vp's books & TWI endorsed books. The real difference between you and many other folks here is the opinion one has of those facts.

Funny you should bring that up – I remember from the Advanced Class of 1978, vp's version of David's sin and what angered God so much – it wasn't the adultery but that an UNBELIEVER killed Uriah during his return to the battlefront. I bought into his spin on that myself a long time ago – but I think if one removes the PFAL-colored glasses [that always cast vp & his teachings in a favorable light] and reviews all the details like Nathan confronting David about his adultery in II Samuel 12, they'll see what was the real issue with God. The whole point of Nathan's parable about the guy with a bunch of sheep stealing the one lone sheep of a neighbor addresses the sin of adultery. And vp's other scripture twisting feat of "all the women of the kingdom technically belonged to the king anyway" that he casually mentions in passing in PFAL about this incident has been handled numerous times on various threads, so I won't get into that here – but will just repeat my earlier recommendation to read the various threads at Grease Spot. Also there's a big difference between someone in a moment of weakness succumbs to a temptation and someone who is a repeat offender. It's the difference between impetuous or impulsive sin and premeditated sin. In vp's case, besides considering all his planning & orchestrating of situations/opportunities that one can assume went on [which would qualify as premeditated sin] – there's a whole other issue besides adultery that human decency must address - the fact that he was a sexual predator. Understanding how this predatory system works depends on one's level of involvement with TWI. Your average TWI follower out in the field is not aware of the organization's dark underbelly. But the closer one gets to the support system of TWI – the more one sees what it takes to not only maintain a façade of a pristine Christian ministry but the indoctrinating elements that can sabotage the conscience and lay the groundwork for predators. The reason there's an abundance of dark anecdotes and realizations of TWI's true nature after the fact - here at Grease Spot is because it's coming from folks who were WOWs, Fellow Laborers, Staff, Corps, etc. – i.e. people who were caught up in the inner workings of this predatory system. A case in point – I've shared several times about the pajama party during my days of in-residence Family Corps – with vp showing his favorite porn video and making lewd comments to a sixteen year old girl. The difference in having the PFAL-colored glasses on or off can best be understood by thinking about the reaction of my pajama party incident by people in two different categories: TWI followers and folks who have never been in TWI [or have taken off the PFAL-colored glasses]. Before I came to Grease Spot I never thought about that incident in anyway other than a fond memory of how warm & personable vp was, being an example of being so spiritual one can handle anything and not sin. But after reading of the horror stories here and tossing the PFAL glasses – another insidious bit of machinery becomes apparent – the teachings & casual remarks addressed to leaders-in-training were designed to sedate the conscience, blur boundaries, and nullify the moral demands of Scripture. In this system – no matter where a person is in TWI's hierarchy – their actual role is that of either a predator, facilitator or victim. What makes you think folks haven't forgiven here? Maybe you don't understand something – people can forgive someone who hurt them – even if the offender never asked for forgiveness. And once a person does forgive another – that does not resolve all the other issues generated in the mind of the offended person. But I believe the act of forgiveness is a step in the right direction for the offended one – now how long it will take to resolve those other things - only God knows. But I think we miss the bigger picture of this scenario – what is the whole point of forgiveness? With God it is reconciliation to Him. Forgiveness among brethren is the road to their reconciliation also. It's a shame the TWI protocol negates all that. I also suggest you study the way Jesus said the church should handle transgressions among brethren in Matthew 18, TWI protocol negates that also. I never considered myself a "duped automaton" either – I got involved and stayed involved by the freedom of my will. Do you know why I continued to stay in TWI for 12 years? I was duped into thinking they were my only viable option to enjoy a fulfilled life – please refer to my quote below from "The Closing of the American Mind".

Not only is that really funny but you've managed to point out yet another inaccuracy in vp's doctrines. Gene Siskel passed away in 1999 - yet he was still able to review this current release! And I remember in the class vp said critics come and go – he even gave a definitive answer in "Are the Dead Alive Now?" But all that didn't stop Siskel from reviewing this movie. Way to go Spec! [sorry Spec - that was the perfect set up - I couldn't resist; your post was very funny and spot on though! Love ya, Bro ]

We've got the makings for a couple of movies so far.. . "The Absent Minded Christ" the story of a cult leader with an extreme Messiah complex. With his thoughts always in deep doo doo he remains heedless to present circumstances and clueless to a thing called reality. Watch the drama unfold as he lords it over meek followers. All the drama comes from the cult leader's stage antics because his followers have been trained to suppress emotions. "Chariot of the god" A cult leader hell-bent on his-word-over-your-world domination, travels town to town in a motor coach, proclaiming he knows what his followers think. The suspense intensifies when the cult leader finds out what some of his followers really think about the motor coach rocking after each service.

D Miller – that's so funny and very fitting with Rum Runner's post. Chockfull, thanks for your additions and I've got a feeling we're going to have the most comprehensive answer to D Miller's first question by the time this thread is done. I appreciate everyone's comments even though I may not have acknowledged all the posts. After a favorite thread runs its course I usually download it & convert it to a PDF for safe-keeping. This way when I'm really old & memory is totally shot I'll review them all with renewed shock & awe: "What?! I was in a cult?! Then I got out and joined Grease Spot?! Grease Spot? What's a Grease Spot?.. .Well, at least I wasn't abducted by aliens.. . not that I know of anyway. Unless it's on one of these other gol' darn threads! Tonto, more cappuccino please!.. . Shoulda stuck with the Decaffeinated forum." Great googly moogly Rum Runner! That is one helluva incisive post! You've certainly hit the nail on the head – uhm, my head - or more specifically where my head was at during its TWI years. Never put it together like that – but for all practical purposes I believe there were many of us who held vp in just about as high regard as Christ Himself. Ugh – what a con indeed! I found another vp quote from "Lifelines", page 31 under the chapter "The Integrity of God's Word" - it fits in rather nice right about now: "Research – not to find something new in the Word, but to establish in your own heart the inherent and inerrant accuracy of the truths of God's Word for yourself." End of excerpt. Yeah – keep away from researching for anything new - cuz you might find something that contradicts the "accuracy & integrity" of what Christ vp said in PFAL. Class, the ONLY way to establish in your own heart the "accuracy and integrity" of PFAL is to review PFAL and ONLY PFAL. Review, review, review until you've got PFAL coming out of both earballs. [End of excerpt from an amplified literal translation according to Way-years of intellectual neglect & abuse. Oh, how I wish you could see it in the original - it's just SO WHAT?!]

Great input Oakspear! I watched a pretty good movie not too long ago and something you said brought it to mind in a round about way. I was thinking how in all of vp's plagiarism there's usually some flaws that surface which does more than just reveal his ineptness with the subject matter - it's further proof that his incompetency could NOT have come up with any of the material that he presents as his own. Anyway, the movie is "Working Girl", 1988, starring Melanie Griffith, Sigourney Weaver & Harrison Ford. Sigourney steals an idea from her secretary [played by Melanie]. I won't get into the plot of the whole movie – but for the purpose of my point will describe a pivotal scene when Sigourney's "theft" is found out and Melanie winds up getting the credit. Sigourney is confronted by her boss after hearing about Melanie's involvement with the execution of the idea. The boss simply asks Sigourney to explain HOW she came up with the idea – and she couldn't. I love that scene! Speaking of movies – think about how a good actor with a good screenplay can make for a good movie. But you know – no matter how well the actor plays the part of a brain surgeon having mannerisms and lingo down pat – it does NOT make him a real brain surgeon. Seasoned grads of PFAL are so enamored with vp's performance they can't see through the charade – having as Oakspear puts it their PFAL-colored glasses on. That's a mindset that sorta functions like those 3-D glasses at the movies. The 3-D glasses really add a lot to the viewing experience - they simulate depth and give a sense of reality to the viewer. But after all it's only a movie – the actor is just pretending and the movie is not real. Having removed the PFAL-colored glasses a long time ago – this is just a review by one humble "movie" critic who has watched the PFAL show a number of times – and in my opinion vp is a lousy actor and the screenplay is poorly written – and vp is not a real theologian or scholar anyway. I can see why this movie went straight to video - don't bother waiting for it to come out on DVD - instead there's a bootleg Blu-ray "version" of it already available - in the form of interactive commentaries right here at Grease Spot care for some popcorn?.. . Oh and don't bother to bring the PFAL-colored glasses - for some reason they don't work here. And for all you Grease Spot critics out there I'll make sure to put on my Grease Spot-colored glasses >>>> yo, check me out

That's a great point Spectrum! And you got me thinking more about vp's plagiarism – which has been and continues to be a big topic on many threads – but what I thought may prove enlightening for some newer folks is to isolate vp's input from that of those he plagiarized – I'm not suggesting another direction for this thread – just wanted to recommend folks check out Raf's thread "Actual Errors in PFAL" http://www.greasespo...dpost__p__21847 Yup - it really showcases his knack for "accuracy" alright - never mind what it says about having any intellectual "integrity".