T-Bone

Welcome to Grease Spot, Billy G ! Do enjoy the cup of Joe & Jack Daniels – sip & consider the posts on this thread….I'd like to throw in a cup of the Café's finest cappuccino and a tall glass of Vodka & Sprite with a lime twist… uhm….sip & consider some more. I like WordWolf's posts because they really cut to the heart of the matter, IMHO… His posts made me think of a couple of common denominators with many of us here [at least I tend to think so] – that as followers of TWI we all tended to adopt some faulty assumptions to one degree or another – AND ALSO JUST AS IMPORTANT – we realize now, that critical thinking was discouraged by leadership. I left TWI in '86 - during the administrative meltdown following the reading of Passing of the Patriarch. The reason I left was simple – mounting intellectual differences - though at the time, I had such a crisis of faith it was extremely difficult to figure out exactly what was bugging me… In the turmoil of that upper leadership crisis, wondering what I should do – an odd thing was happening in my head. I began questioning everything - atrophied muscles are just about impossible to call into immediate service – but over time, critical thinking skills common to all of us, began wading through the doctrines & practices… considering, analyzing, verifying, rejecting, adjusting, clarifying, exploring, etc. – I'm sure it's somewhat different for everyone, but the basic process is the same – as evidenced by the wide variety of beliefs/opinions of former followers here. Like I said, I left initially over intellectual differences – and have enjoyed the FREEDOM to THINK ever since ! But it's only since I joined Grease Spot a few years ago, that there is now a bigger reason to dislike TWI – over the moral issues that WordWolf's posts so succinctly noted.

Another perfect match by eHarmony !

I did some work in a small town – Pagosa Springs. We're talking a really small town. After a few business trips there – I took my family there for a vacation and stayed in a cozy little cabin nestled in the hills. We talked about the possibility of moving there in our "what if" dreams - but the fact that we're getting older and have a daughter with special needs - a decent size city is more realistic for us. Wishing you the best in figuring out your next move – and a hearty citizen's salute/prayers/thanks to you and all our troops T-Bone

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Think I'm up to 4 cents now.. . don't mean to monopolize the discussion but the topic was on my mind over the long weekend and wound up checking out the definition of idolatry in a few biblical dictionaries.. . Anywho – thought a couple of the references were post-worthy – especially since they go along an idea expressed in Imagine's opening post and TrustandObey's post. From Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, editor Walter Elwell, pages 542 & 543 under Idolatry: ".. .(1)The first commandment prohibited.. . worshipping any other god than the Lord (Exod. 20:3), thereby eliminating the false forms of idolatrous religion practiced in neighboring nations. (2) The second commandment forbade the worship of the God of Israel in the form of an image or idol (Exod. 20:4-6). Of the two prohibitions, the latter was crucial to the integrity of Israel's theology. To worship God in the form of an idol would be to reduce God the creator to the substance of creation (that which was represented in the idol), thereby undermining fundamentally the conception of the transcendent creator God. The idol gave to devotees a sense of the physical proximity of a deity and perhaps also the conviction that the deity's power could be harnessed by human beings. The God of Israel was immanent, but the immanence could not be expressed in physical or tangible form; it remained the essence of faith and of experience.. . .. . In the NT times idolatry was practiced in various forms throughout the Roman empire and was steadfastly resisted by the early Christian church. It was understood as a sign of human folly (Rom. 1:22-23), representing a perversion of true religion. More frequently, however, the NT writers used the concept of idolatry in a metaphorical sense, particularly with respect to covetousness (Eph. 5:5, Col. 3:5); covetousness is an "idol" by virtue of becoming the immediate focus of a person's desires and "worship", displacing the worship of God. In the later history of Christianity, idolatry in the strict sense has continued to be opposed in the terms of the ancient biblical prohibitions. But the continuing danger has more commonly returned in the metaphorical sense delineated in the NT; it is the "worship" (i.e., the total dedication of a person) of that which is seen and tangible, the goals of covetousness, rather than the unseen spiritual being of God." End of excerpts ~~ Considering the fact that one of the big sales pitches for PFAL was the benefit listed on the back of the Green Card "increases prosperity", and also recalling an old flyer for PFAL – I still have on file from my initial involvement in NY which boldly stated "you can have whatever you want" - - I would say a big chunk of TWI doctrine was both a product of idolatry as well as a producer of more idolatry – it's the gift that keeps on giving. A nifty little infectious combo! Makes me think of the old SNL joke commercial with Chevy Chase promoting a fantastic new product to an amazed Gilda Radner & Dan Aykroyd looking on "New Shimmer is a floor wax AND a dessert topping!" Reflecting on my former beliefs, it seems to boil down to God being reduced to a genie-in-a-bottle, rub the PFAL book three times and make a wish – God AND this magical "law of believing" that supposedly He created were really nothing more than a means to an end. "After all, isn't it God's will that I should prosper? Didn't Jesus come to give me the more than abundant life?" Man oh man! I was always so concerned with trying to tap God's resources [aka "Father Money Bags"]! Honestly, I faithfully gave more than 10 % of my income to those lying, thieving weasels, wouldn't take on a better paying job that compensated techs for being on-call cuz that would interfere with the six evenings a week that I did something for them bozos – is it any wonder the wife & I had financial struggles our entire time in Wayworld - - that little green (card) idol always looked so tantalizing. Geez – it's almost like a drug addict turning dealer to ensure a steady supply. That's right folks, this post is a signed confession of a former idolater! ~~ My other reference speaks about greed in the context of idolatry – but also adds a few other things to consider. From New Dictionary of Biblical Theology, editors T. Desmond Alexander, Brian S. Rosner, D.A. Carson, Graeme Goldsworthy, pages 569-575 under Idolatry: ".. . It is not just that idolatry was one vice among many of which the heathen were guilty; rather, idolatry is a defining feature of the heathen, whose way of life is characterized inevitably by this sin. I Thessalonians 4: 3-5, read in conjunction with 1:9, is an early Pauline witness to this conviction. The characterization of the heathen by the three sins of sexual immorality, idolatry and greed comes through consistently in the Pauline vice catalogues. Furthermore, these three sins are the only vices in the Pauline letters that are considered to be such a threat that they must be 'shunned' or 'fled' (I Cor. 6:18; 10:14 and I Tim. 6:10-11 respectively). In Romans 2:22 Paul takes it for granted that Jews abhor and detest idols. Opposition to idolatry was in effect a drawing of group boundaries for the people of God, set within the wider framework of their identity and self-definition. In making it clear what they stood for, they emphasized what they stood against.. . .. . what then qualifies as idolatry? Although a number of possibilities, including pride, come to mind, the NT unambiguously judges only one thing to be idolatry, outside of the literal worship of idols, namely greed. The charge that greed is idolatry appears in four places. It is stated in Colossians 3:5.. . Ephesians 5:5.. . and implied in the mammon saying in Matthew 6:24 and Luke 16:13.. . .. . The fundamental question of theology, 'What do we mean by "God"?', can be answered from a variety of angles by exploring God's various relations to the world and to ourselves. Ironically, the study of idolatry also gives us some insight into the nature of the true God. What constitutes a god? Martin Luther's answer, as he reflected on the first commandment in his larger catechism, was 'whatever your heart clings to and relies upon, that is your God; trust and faith of the heart alone make both God and idol.' We wish to confirm his view, but also to emphasize love and service: a god is that which one loves, trusts and serves above all else. This definition suggests both the possibility and the urgency of making clear the relevance of idolatry to the modern world.. ." End of excerpts ~~ I think it was in that book I mentioned earlier, Idols for Destruction – that I came upon a passage that held a simple yet powerful warning – beware of setting up idols in the heart – though invisible they are still real enough to become a major stumbling block: Ezekiel 14:7, 8 NIV 7 When any Israelite or any alien living in Israel separates himself from me and sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet to inquire of me, I the LORD will answer him myself. 8 I will set my face against that man and make him an example and a byword. I will cut him off from my people. Then you will know that I am the LORD. Thinking about this discussion and these references – stirs up a lot of old memories from a murky mindset of long ago. How I held PFAL and vp in such a high regard – perhaps not even realizing I viewed them as just about on par with the Bible & God Himself! I mean – if vp said it – that settles it! I mean it's really weird to reflect on some of this stuff. Yuk - a system of thought that was fattening me up for the express purpose of sucking my life away - shades of the Copper Top life in "The Matrix". Life support system for some ravenous beast - weird bunch of idols wrapped up in a Christian costume. Yeech, me feeling like an adult sheep – looking over some old family photos – and a little unsettled by some of the details; obvious to me now but never noticed at the time the pictures were taken, "Holy $hi t, I was raised by wolves!"

This is just my 2 cents – could be wrong but - the context is talking about spiritual truths. And the way I understand it is that the man without the Spirit cannot appraise spiritual truths. I don't think it's talking about whether or not one person could judge another. I Corinthians 2:11-16 NIV 11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: 16"For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ. It seems reasonable from this passage - that a non-Christian would have a hard time understanding or accepting the elements of the faith [like the resurrection of Christ, justification, prayer, Christ's sacrifice for our sins, etc.]. However – I don't think there's anything implied in these verses to suggest a Christian's behavior is beyond the scope of judgment by others. I think of verses that speak of knowing a tree by its fruit, living a life above reproach, glorifying God by our good works. In that regard – I think if one was living a hypocritical life – it would be obvious to some [perhaps even a non-Christian] that the person's lifestyle is inconsistent with the tenets of their faith – and thus a legitimate "judgment call". Take a look at I Corinthians 5, where Paul talks about the reports of sexual immorality going on in their local church – it was so bad, that they out did the pagans! Some heavy stuff going on there – so bad perhaps even the pagans were judging it wrong by their own standards [some reports may have filtered down from them]. Read the rest of it too – Paul called for some drastic action – boot the offender out of the church – because a little yeast will work it's way through the whole batch of dough. And on a related note - sorry to say it but it seems like there's a typical Christian mindset that can settle in sometimes where you feel it's your Christian duty to shut down your powers of observation & sense of honesty and look past someone's major inconsistencies with the faith – often accompanied by shouts of "you're looking at the flesh and not the spirit" or other jive that can cloud one's reason. ~~ vp being the sociopath that he was – gave little regard to the consequences of his actions – perhaps justifying himself with delusions of being the man-o-gawd for the world, being spiritually mature, so renewed his mind that something isn't sin to him, yada yada yada. Tell ya what, just try explaining to someone who has never been in TWI some of the stuff vp says in Christian Family & Sex class - or mention how he played his favorite porn video accompanied with his "spiritually liberating" comments to folks in the Family Corps - uhm - you heard right, FAMILY Corps!

You may want to check out these books – compiled from numerous Grease Spot threads: vp is not God Is PFAL alive now? vp tells me so vp our plagiarist The New Dynamic Cult Christians should be promiscuous The vp way: or the highway Lifestyle of a deceiver

Ha! Too funny Dooj! Here's how I always keep it straight. Pee Wee danced to Tequila on top of the bar – and Vee Pee drank Drambuie and wound up under the bar.

An extra penny to add to my previous 2 cents. the relationship of worship & service. There's always the practical consequence of doctrine to take into account. I think sometimes the TWI mindset tended to compartmentalize ideas – which not only blinds one to contradictory thoughts but also how some things relate to each other. I'm thinking about a particular PFAL teaching on what is true worship – saying the only true worship was to SIT. However, there's a couple of Bible passages that give me the idea that there's a twofold aspect when it comes to reverence, devotion; one is intellectual and the other is practical. When I say "intellectual" – I don't think it's something stuffy, heady, philosophical – like that – maybe it's much more, involving our emotions, passions. I think worship is basically love. In Matthew 4 when Jesus was tempted to worship the devil in exchange for the kingdoms of this world – He responded by saying we are to worship AND serve the Lord our God only [Matthew 4:10]. And in Romans 1, speaking of the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness – how they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped AND served created things rather than the Creator [Romans 1:25]. Again thinking about worship as love we find service linked to it in Matthew 6:24. Jesus talked about the impossibility of serving two masters – we wind up hating one and loving the other, and He ends that thought by saying "You cannot serve both God and wealth" [NASB]. That can apply to anything tempting - the big four – fame, fortune, power and pleasure. As Romans 6:16 indicates – whatever you choose to obey becomes your master. What I think relates to this discussion is a biblical definition of idolatry. I'm sure others can chime in with references – but the most comprehensive one I can think of right off the bat is in Exodus 20 – I see a number of prohibitions/directives in the first half of the Ten Commandments intended to guard the monogamous relationship a believer has with the Lord God. And getting back to the worship/service correlation – it's intriguing to think about the practical side of the commandments – especially when put in the context of how I relate to others [don't murder, don't commit adultery, don't lie, don't steal, etc.]. That gets me thinking about when Jesus was asked what the most important commandment was in Matthew 22:36-40. Jesus' answer was not one – but two commandments – He summarized them as being to love God and neighbor – and saying that all the other commandments -demands - directives of the Law & Prophets are anchored, supported, based upon these two. Exodus 20 has love & service intertwined – but stated mostly in a negative sense ["Do not do so & so"]. Matthew 22 presents love & service as a positive duet. I also agree with your point about how TWI's god was one of their own creation and through teachings like "the law of believing" & pushing SIT as perfect prayer & true worship there was a subliminal message getting fed to folks that God was at our beck & call – as long as we did the right things God would comply with our every wish or command. I believe idolatry tends to be self-serving. And I think about the dark horrible experiences of abuse & sexual molestations mentioned on Grease Spot – that $ hi + is the extreme opposite of the two great commandments! Yeah, and vp re-defined what it means to love your neighbor anyway – saying "anything done in the love of God is okay." Come to think of it, vp re-defined idolatry too. Did you ever hear him rant from the podium about Jesus Christ not being God and we should not worship Him? He'd go on & on making analogies about moving the decimal point one place over, changes the value of the numbers – and that to think Jesus is God is idolatry. Ok – so I'm a Trinitarian and have nothing against my Unitarian brothers – but please allow me the freedom to follow the dictates of my conscience - of my understanding of John 1:1, Colossians 1: 15-20, Hebrews1: 5 & ff, and - uhm - well, you know the drill; but when it comes right down to it - the worship AND service aspect of it – the practical consequence of one's theology – I don't think we [Trinitarians & Unitarians] are that different practically speaking. And really who cares?!?! As long as neither side uses the issue as a polarizing tool to separate "the true believers" and damn the rest to hell – oh, shades of the New Knoxville Inquisition!

In my opinion, idolatry was only one of the many problems that plagued TWI. I think it was theologian Alister McGrath addressing this issue who said something about Jesus Christ being the only God-sanctioned image for Christians when it comes to gaining a better understanding of God the Father – Jesus did say "he who has seen Me has seen the Father." I guess old vp showed his flagrant disregard for the Son by saying things like "the Word takes the place of the absent Christ" – and hardly focusing on His words & works in the gospels. TWI was not Christ-centered at all! No wonder idolatry was in full bloom. Here's some stuff I've read - you might find interesting on this subject. Idols for Destruction by Herbert Schlossberg http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/0891077383 and God Lite: The idolatry of Reduction by Chip Ingram http://mrc.christian...th/1403373.aspx

"Geez, will you get it right! I ordered the Lorena Bobbitt Special...which is half that...to go!"

Yeah – good one Excathedra – you've inspired my funny bone - so here goes... TWI writing style in various business contexts.... Late bill notice: "Greetings & blessings to you in the name of our wonderful Redeemer, who paid in full the price for our sins. Unfortunately, he didn't cover your cable bill." Response from IRS to a TWI follower's income tax filing: "Please be advised altering tax forms is a serious matter. It has come to our attention that on your 2007 tax form, you crossed out 'married filing separately' and wrote in 'together with yet distinctly independent of'." Notification of an out of stock item: "We are sorry to inform you that one of the items on your order is presently unavailable due to factory cutbacks. In an effort to lessen cost overruns to our shipping and handling departments impacted by filling partial orders we have decided that your entire order will be held in abeyance until every item on your order is completely, completely, absolutely completely available." Investment opportunity ad: "Mining company seeks investors to finance re-opening of abandoned mine believed to have several untapped veins. We look forward to working with those who have the love of gold in the renewed mine in manifestation." Advertisement for how a new wonder drug works: "The memory pill works both thoroughly and throughly by ineffable greatness in accordance with the exceeding abundantly above and beyondness of all other redundancy in the great principle with and/or without distinct exception. The memory pill remembers the memories you should remember. They now become the pill's memories, and the pill's memories remind your memories of things to remember, then it becomes manifested along memory lane as you remember. It's just another amazing breakthrough from Lokbox Pharmaceuticals." [ps. this upgrade takes some serious getting used to...]

Got it, Geisha - I'll put Piper's book on my to-read list and will probably check it out of the library sometime....If I buy any more books Tonto will make me build an addition onto the house .

From what I've picked up in some commentaries and what little I know of David's life – I think it's when Saul was after him… Page 303 of Keil & Delitzsch Commentary of the Old Testament, Volume 5, Psalms by C.F. Keil & F. Delitzsch says: "…It is a Davidic Psalm belonging to the time of the persecution by Saul. Ewald brings it down to the time preceding the destruction of Jerusalem, and Bauer to the time of the Exile…But it seems to be confirmed at every point, that David who was so persecuted by Saul, is the author…" End of excerpt ~~ Page 167 & ff of Exploring the Psalms, Volume One, Psalms 1-88 by John Phillips says: "…This psalm might have been written when David was cornered by Saul in the wilderness of Maon. Persecution by Saul had been fierce and David, scrambling place to place to keep out of his reach, was in desperate straits. David could easily have thought that even God had abandoned him, but soon learned otherwise, for a providential Philistine invasion of Israel at the other end of the country distracted Saul in the nick of time and forced him to call off the hunt (I Samuel 23:25-29). The intense personal note on this psalm shows it was wrung out of David in some bitter experience. He described the situation graphically. He was pinned to one spot, his enemies gathered all around, deprived of his clothing, subjected to at least one form of torture (for his hands and feet have been wounded), absolutely friendless. Somewhere in the background were many friends, but even so his enemies were many and strong, his sufferings prolonged, and his mental and spiritual anguish intense. His chief pain, however, lay in the fact that God seemingly had abandoned him. Christians have seen a vivid and realistic portrait of the Lord Jesus Christ in this psalm. The sufferer is evidently enduring the horrors of crucifixion. David never suffered any such thing – possibly never knew there was such a way to die. Some of the hyperbole is really inspired prophecy as we can see when we compare what is written with the story of the crucifixion. Indeed, the Psalmist gives a more vivid description of the sufferings of Christ on the cross than do the authors of the gospels, none whom dwell on the horrors of crucifixion, which were too well known in their day to need elaboration…" End of excerpts ~~ As far as where vp got the "for this purpose was I spared" thing… WordWolf and some of Grease Spot's other top notch "investigators" could probably nail it down for you…but off the top of my head I'm thinking…[if memory serves me right - he pulled the old "hey, someone else was thinking along the same lines as me too, what a coincidence" crap – like he did with Bullinger/4 crucified…] after vp suggested his version of the words from the cross in PFAL, he referred to The Holy Bible from Ancient Eastern Manuscripts by George Lamsa, quoting Matthew 27:46 "…My God, my God, for this I was spared". Lamsa has a footnote on the verse which reads "This was my destiny".

Yup Geisha & Skyrider – ditto to PFAL being a rotten foundation, cheap grace, cheap righteousness, cheap doctrine & cheap suits! ~~ Getting back to Leafytwiglet's opening post – I've been reviewing the gospels on Jesus' words from the cross…thinking and just doing some more speculating. In Mark 15:35 after Jesus quoted Psalm 22:1, some bystanders said He was calling for Elijah. In John 19:30 Jesus received the sour wine and said "It is finished!", bowed His head and gave up His spirit. After reading Psalm 22 [which I pasted below – [chose NIV cuz it was the easiest to clean up the hyper-text stuff] I was just wondering…was Jesus quoting the entire Psalm. Maybe bystanders mistook His words for a whole lot of rambling by a delirious punch-drunk poor soul. …I know – it's a bit of a stretch – just thinking about the last phrase in Psalm 22, "he has done it" equating with "it is finished". But instead of using the third person – Jesus states it in the sense of Himself accomplishing it. Though the Psalm applied immediately to David when it was written – it ultimately was fulfilled in Jesus at the cross. Imo, a very unusual Psalm – such contrast….from expressing hopelessness & abandonment in a horrible situation – to praising God for His help to others in times past. Because the New Testament has about 15 messianic quotations and/or allusions to Psalm 22 some commentaries & study Bibles refer to it as the fifth gospel. I can see that for sure [now who was the fifth Beatle is probably a more debatable issue :) ]. Psalm 22 NIV 1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from the words of my groaning? 2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer, by night, and am not silent. 3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One; you are the praise of Israel. 4 In you our fathers put their trust; they trusted and you delivered them. 5 They cried to you and were saved; in you they trusted and were not disappointed. 6 But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by men and despised by the people. 7 All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads: 8 "He trusts in the LORD; let the LORD rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him." 9 Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you even at my mother's breast. 10 From birth I was cast upon you; from my mother's womb you have been my God. 11 Do not be far from me, for trouble is near and there is no one to help. 12 Many bulls surround me; strong bulls of Bashan encircle me. 13 Roaring lions tearing their prey open their mouths wide against me. 14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted away within me. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death. 16 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. 18 They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing. 19 But you, O LORD, be not far off; O my Strength, come quickly to help me. 20 Deliver my life from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dogs. 21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions; save me from the horns of the wild oxen. 22 I will declare your name to my brothers; in the congregation I will praise you. 23 You who fear the LORD, praise him! All you descendants of Jacob, honor him! Revere him, all you descendants of Israel! 24 For he has not despised or disdained the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help. 25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly; before those who fear you will I fulfill my vows. 26 The poor will eat and be satisfied; they who seek the LORD will praise him— may your hearts live forever! 27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations will bow down before him, 28 for dominion belongs to the LORD and he rules over the nations. 29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship; all who go down to the dust will kneel before him— those who cannot keep themselves alive. 30 Posterity will serve him; future generations will be told about the Lord. 31 They will proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn— for he has done it.

Geisha, I think you're opening up a whole new can of worms! But I think you've got something there. I don't recall any specific teachings along those lines - - BUT -- someone suggesting we could have done what Jesus did [by operating all 9 all the time, of course or through absolute reliance on the "law of believing"] doesn't seem outlandish for TWI doctrine. I think the deck was stacked against Jesus ever getting top billing at New Knoxville - even from the gitgo. The Word takes the place of the absent Christ…It's Christ in you the hope of glory. It's Christ's brain cells behind your brain cells…God has no hands but our hands…gospels weren't written to us… It's a strange thing to think about – even though Jesus Christ is tossed around in PFAL – it's almost like He was a has-been or something – taking second or third fiddle to what WE could do now with the Holy Spirit. Imo, Jesus Christ was nothing more than window dressing for PFAL – putting a nice Christian veneer on some strange doctrines….that brings me back to some more thoughts about what you were saying. I believe vp tended to diminish the seriousness of sin, promote a cheap grace and lived like someone who had no fear of God in their life. God forbid our behavior should make us feel bad…and then there's his talk about a loving parent not forsaking their child in time of need…I do think vp's tendency to emphasize love and ignore the consequences of sin paved the way for a loose-living lifestyle with no boundaries, no rules, no consequences.

Perhaps it's a matter of interpreting certain words like "death". In my TWI era [or maybe TWI error ] – my view of death leaned more toward it being annihilation. But now I think there's probably a lot more to "death" in any category than just assuming it is the simplistic show-stopper, "that's all folks" that I gathered from PFAL. I know I'm not doing a great job of selling the idea – and not saying a lot of doctrine hinges on this point. Like a lot of things – I'm not sure about this – I was just expressing my current point of view. Guess I've shifted from looking at death as an end of state to a change of state. Like you, I would love Scripture to be clearer on some things…well…a lot of things really. So after saying all that I'd like to ask – when Scripture says Jesus tasted death for every man or He was the perfect sacrifice, a lamb led to the slaughter, or that the wages of sin is death – is it possible there's a lot more to these death references than the simple cessation of bodily functions. I don't want to alter Scripture – thought the example you gave of Jesus was separated from the Father for us sounded odd….yeah….you've got me worried that I'm having a warped-Corps breach….uhm meltdown or something – and the Literal Translation According to Usage thingy is leaking out…..Anywho……maybe I'll just throw this in the hermetically sealed I dunno vault - that's also where I keep my viewpoint of the Trinity. Yes – I understand your point completely. And I didn't mean to offend any Christians or insult my Savior in the way I said what I did. I DO AGREE with you in that there can be a lot of disagreement over what the experience was, fundamentally. And I guess to reiterate my point or sum it up or something….The gospels give us a lot of detail about Jesus' last hours. What is lacking though is an outright statement from God Almighty on the exact meaning behind every detail. My contention is that Jesus felt what it was like to be spiritually separated from God – which I think was such a gross and unbelievably heavy burden for the Son of man to bear that He cried out in helpless despair. Taking on our sin…becoming sin for us….He now experienced the consequences of sin first hand – separation from God…. He truly paid the price for our sins….Maybe I'm trying to explore how much Jesus gave up….it wasn't just a beating heart. And that's what's so unique about the crossroads of justice and love. God loved Jesus AND a fallen race. I don't know why it had to work out this way – but going by Scriptures' praise for all of Jesus' accomplishments I guess the best way God could satisfy the claims of justice in a moral universe was a loving sacrifice commensurate to the demands.

Great link, Geisha – thanks! I like that answer but also wanted to throw in my 2 cents. A lot of things come to mind when I think of Jesus' words from the cross. I keep coming back to a thought provoking situation – where Jesus' self-sacrifice stands at the crossroads of justice and love. Like an ever-widening picture as the camera pulls back – I find so many passages & topics that seem to be in close proximity to the cross. Some systematic theologies address death – not so much as annihilation – but separation. Physical death being separation of the body and the life-force [soul, or whatever you want to call it]. Spiritual death being separation of man from God. When the Bible speaks of Jesus tasting death for everyman – I think it means both – physical & spiritual – and heavy emphasis on the spiritual. For me, it focuses on how much He completely identified with us – experiencing a whole lot more than physical death. Scripture says the wages of sin is death – I tend to think that covers both deaths too. Which brings me to my next point. I think justice-wise there was no other way around it. Adam was the first man – perfect – but because of his sin was separated from God. The penal code of the Law demanded an eye for an eye – offering something inferior in exchange for what was taken was unacceptable. More than physical life was traumatized in the Garden – the spiritual aspect of life was deeply impacted – the connection with God severed – a condition passed down to an entire race. Jesus – as the second Adam offered His perfect life in exchange for our decrepitude. I admit sometimes my mind tends to water things down when thinking about this – maybe a residual of teachings that used to say how God didn't forsake Jesus – God was right there with Him all the way. As if Jesus was acting out a part on stage – and only He was aware of God being stage-right and they're winking back and forth at each other. And so this little charade wasn't as hard as some might imagine since it was just pretend – like a disclaimer at the end of a violent movie – "no one was really spiritually hurt during this production." Bottom line is I think Jesus said these words from the depths an utterly horrible, mind-boggling & super intense experience – an acute awareness of actually being separated from God. I'm thinking of the darkest times of my life – where I didn't think there was anything beyond what my eyes could take in - - maybe that's a little taste of what Jesus felt.

Very thought provoking post, Cheranne! For me what has helped a lot has been coming to Grease Spot. Just getting a sense of what others have experienced is illuminating. It does a lot to validate some thoughts I’ve had – which builds self-confidence I guess…. Tonto & I have gone through spells of church shopping – but don’t belong to one and haven’t gone to a church in a long time. I think part of me is just so burned out with the whole organized religion thing….still read the Bible…still pray…still try to live an honest decent life and be good to my fellowman. Not really sure about a personality change – since coming out from under TWI’s shadow, I figure my personality has always been there – just greatly suppressed while I was in.

Cool Brainfixed. ~~ And while I'm handing out hugs, here's one for you ((((Now I See)))) for sharing that gosh awful/funny clip of Way Productions - I crack up everytime I play it.....ah the guilty pleasures of a former cult member. ...and a special hug for [[[[the guy bustin' a move in the clip]]]] .....I mean literally - there's something busted there.

((((Excathedra)))) I can't think of anything cool to say or express how much I think of you. Courage, honesty, strength & compassion resonate from your every post! Thanks for being here. ((((Brainfixed)))) I hope you don't think I'm an a$$hole for the way I disagreed with you on a few things. It's too bad Grease Spot is only a virtual café. So much is lost without face-to-face dialog. I feel frustrated most of the time when I post and think I come off as stuffy & clinical….another thing is to realize where I'm coming from – I'm a guy, former ignorant facilitator and one who never knew of nor experienced the physical abuse or sexual molestation mentioned here. My losses are miniscule by comparison – wasted time, financial setbacks, bad decisions in education & career, etc…I can't even imagine being in your shoes – I'd probably lose them after shoving them so far up somebody's bu++. I left in 86 mostly for intellectual reasons – in the aftermath of Patriarch, my mind was in hot pursuit of some answers – questions kept leading to more questions – and a growing self-confidence in my own ability to think. Since I've joined Grease Spot – I've developed a gut-wrenching disgust for all things TWI for moral reasons! I talked about not using broad brush strokes to describe my experience. But that's not to say I always deal with the mental baggage the same way. Over the years I think I've alternated between using Atomic Bombs and Smart Bombs. Sometimes I wanted to lash out and blow it all away – drop the A-Bomb - leave nothing standing! Other times I'd focus a Smart Bomb to zero in on a specific enemy stronghold. What to use when? …dunno…Maybe it's how I feel at the time. Now I See & Geisha, great posts!!!

I'll miss you, Roy - and look forward to your return! I love the good things you bring to Grease Spot! love & peace T-Bone

I don't know…maybe it's just me…your premise doesn't make sense to me - and don't think it's been proven on this thread. The way I understand what others have said on this thread gives me the idea there's a complicated dynamic of what kept each person entangled with TWI. I get a sense of people laying blame where blame is due. Sin is a complicated topic. I've read enough of Jay Adams' stuff on counseling to know that in any situation involving sin – it usually winds up being a compound problem just because of everyone's sinful nature to begin with. Someone does me wrong, I react in kind or put up a good front of forgive & forget even if they don't think they did anything wrong and don't want my forgiveness – or for whatever reason - the issue is not biblically resolved [like the process shown in Matthew 18:15-17]…then comes the quiet crapstorm of invisible sins – resentment, bitterness, anger, & hatred build up in my head thinking about the person who done me wrong. Unresolved sin begets more sin – with both parties. That doesn't relieve either side of culpability nor does it diminish the seriousness of the sin that started the ball rolling. This was addressed by Jesus in Matthew 7: 7 and following – saying woe to the world because of stumbling blocks – it is inevitable that stumbling blocks will come – but woe to the person through whom the stumbling block comes! Worst case scenario – someone may lead me down the wrong path to stumble and sin – woe is me – and according to the context of the passage and related passages an even bigger woe to the one who lead me there! PFAL painted up all sin being the same. I beg to differ – there's enough passages in the Bible to give me the idea PFAL ignored a lot of detail. What about presumptuous sin? What about the penal code in the Old Testament – eye for an eye? Punishment to fit the crime. What about the different degrees of punishment in hell mentioned by Jesus in the gospels? All sin the same? I don't think so. That's why in my opinion, TWI is a cesspool of sins. Going through PFAL material one doesn't find a hard line on sin or a well defined biblical process for resolving sin issues. Instead sin was diminished to "broken fellowship". People were sold a line of goods with a philosophy of "you are righteous now" that steered folks away from honest self-examination. Although I do think the nature of TWI is parasitic and thrives off of the lives of others – it maintains a certain level of control through any means available. My contention is that the means were usually underhanded, manipulative, and deceptive. If anything - I could see TWI leaders twisting any good thing as somehow a benefit of being in their organization. It reminds me of the plagiarism of vp - using other people's material and putting his twisted spin on it to suit his agenda. Genuine "good times" coming from evil? Don't think so. I think Jesus addressed that - you don't get good fruit from a bad tree. But TWI leaders loved to claim things as their own trophy. Like pointing out some person of note that took the class - they were already successful before the class - but somehow their achievements were due to the principles of PFAL... It's possible I'm the exception – but looking back on my experience I see any of the "good times" as the breath of fresh air that God snuck into my jail cell. I'm of the opinion now - that not only did God bless me through what some kind person did [genuine "good times"] but seems like as the years went by and the organization sucked up more of my life, God blessed me…some how encouraged me to hang in there for some better day, IN SPITE OF what some Nazi-wannabe did. My wife & I had only a handful of genuine friends when we were in – friendships that transcended the wacko god-bidness we were in. In unguarded moments we could talk about anything – even dissatisfaction with the ministry. Those friendships were a big chunk of my "good times". It seems silly to me [besides thinking some stupid outfit had that much power] that TWI would use that to keep us in…..I'd say a really big obstacle to consider before my wife & I seriously thought about leaving TWI in 86 – was the likelihood of losing contact with our good friends – cuz we knew we'd be blacklisted once we did. It took every ounce of courage we could muster to grit our teeth and charge through the invisible fence of TWI and leave!

I appreciate & respect where you're coming from – and by no means am suggesting that anyone categorize things as I do. My son is 29 now – but the first 6 years of his life he was brought up in Way-world – even as far as being in the Family Corps with us. And to be honest – there are definitely some sore spots in our relationship. However, in all fairness – I cannot attribute them all to TWI's "wonderful" environment. Although much can be said about the practical consequence of skewed doctrines [the impact not just to adults but to the kids too] – I would like to elaborate on where I'm coming from – as one not forced to participate. Not only did I choose to participate but I think it's important to point out what I brought into the mix. I came from a dysfunctional family, Dad & Mom were workaholics & depression runs in my Dad's side of the family. So then I get into TWI, get married have a kid and I'm a real treat for the family – with non-existent social skills, willing to burn myself out for the ministry and harboring a blue funk most of the time. Man oh man – some things are just a bad mix with TWI. Now it doesn't let them off the hook though and it definitely puts the ball back in my court… Like you I had to turn to professionals – after much nagging from the wife – and a lot of it over this depression thing… Anyway, when you mentioned being your own best friend – I recalled my first session with the shrink. Most of it was me unloading all the crap in my life, all the bad decisions I've made yada yada…after all that he said "you've got to stop beating yourself up." Learning to forgive oneself is a big deal.