T-Bone

Hi Roy, I always enjoy checking out your posts. I think my feelings toward debate keep changing and I don't really get into it much outside of Grease Spot. Maybe that's because I never liked confrontation. It's a little bit "safer" at Grease Spot – I don't have to look somebody in the eye – just say my piece and move on. And maybe I've vented enough about my frustrations & mental baggage here that most things don't get me riled up. But something I still feel passionate enough about to dive into the fray is a good discussion over the convoluted, debilitating and insidious TWI mindset folks adopt. I spent 12 years of my life entangled with their goofy doctrines & practices to know THAT is definitely NOT a healthy or sane viewpoint. I find many viewpoints interesting and I'm thankful for the wide variety of beliefs here. Nobody has the whole picture. Most of the time I'm not even sure I have the right viewpoint on something. My pea brain can't imagine what God's viewpoint is – and believe so much of His grace actually filters out through people that cross my path. I tend to be hyper-critical of myself – and that is intentional. Perhaps that's the technician in me. A smart technician is one who values humility & honesty. It's a waste of time and just plain dumb to try to fix anything when your diagnostic tools are screwed up. Doesn't mean I'm that way all the time or even most of the time – just that I appreciate those virtues when I do manage to hit the mark. After being burned by pride and self-delusion ala TWI mindset – humility & honesty [when I actually do take those "baby steps" once in awhile] feels like such a healing balm or a couple of old friends. Maybe humility in a debate is admitting to myself I don't have all my ducks in a row and honesty is the courage to make that known to the rest. Some debates are good just for boiling down all the points until we're left with this highly visible platter of articulated assumptions that have been in the background eluding the main discussion. Once they're out in the open then the real fun begins. Sometimes it gets nasty and sometimes everyone just stands back and says "gee, I see we've gotten to the place where the only thing we've nailed down is this or that assumption cannot be proved or disproved." Then we all make a toast with our favorite beverage and say goodnight. [edited because I'm a hyper-critic - dang, dang, dang this mindset!]

I can hardly weight! But ya know – it’s a shame Isaac’s brother Fig gets very little recognition.

yo, check it out - the new cover for the PFAL syllabus

"Sects, Lies & Videotape" although after considering the subliminal messages in vp's classes, I think the original title of "Sex, Lies & Videotape" would do just fine.

I'd have to dig out my Corps journals buried in the attic – but I do remember us having to read "Bedside Manners" during a Christian Family & Sex class – I also remember vp being there for some of it – this was around the time of the infamous pj party with him showing his favorite porn video and getting lewd with a sixteen year old junior Corps girl. I don't remember being required to read much of anything outside of the PFAL books. Our Family Corps program was so pathetic academically/intellectually speaking. We were told always be ready to give a 5 minute teaching during the lunch meal. The person who got the highest praise out of all of us – and I mean this person's 5 minute teaching was referred to over & over again as exactly what they're looking for – was a guy who quoted just about verbatim from one chapter of the Blue Book – "The Bible Tells Me So".. . so to answer your question: reading PFAL books till it came out your nose was required reading when I was in the Corps. Waysider, that was a very thoughtful reply. You got me thinking of how virulent the TWI mindset was in my head – even long after I had left. I was able to unravel some screwy stuff on my own – but it wasn't until I came to Grease Spot that I was able to investigate, isolate & eliminate a bunch of other crap lurking about in my noggin. I know there's still crap in there [and believe it or not I'm working on it] – but you don't know what a relief it was for me to connect with a bunch of folks with similar experiences – wow! I mean I'm not crazy, "tripped out", "tricked" or possessed after all. Hello fellow Grease Spotters - salute!

I'm not falling for that! Why do you have to be so heavy all the time?

Or was it really the apple hitting him on the head that gave him the smarts?

Good stuff Waysider & Sirguessalot! This has been an interesting thread. I’ve followed it but haven’t had anything to post. I guess W & S’s posts jarred something in my head – so here I am with my ramblin’ 2 cents. Concerning unconfessed sin/God crushing you over it, per the preacher man of Watered Garden’s post #1: This reminded me of TWI’s mindset of the-bad-stuff-that-happened-to-you-is-because-of-a-hole-in-your-believing. And while there are some passages in Proverbs & Psalms that suggest our moral status can have an affect on our physical status – I’m also inclined to think the “sin” in question is something on the order of life-dominating and maybe even would be somewhat obvious to the person if they gave their current status some thought. Some things just happen because we live in a fallen world and some things we bring on ourselves just because we are fallen creatures. Of the latter, I’m thinking adultery, stealing, lying, murder - you know, breaking one of the big 10 – whether it’s a one time thing or recurring, they can become life-dominating if I bend everything else in my life around it, to cover it up or to ensure its continuance. A sin is life-dominating when that is what defines me. Ephesians says let him that stole, steal no more – but rather labor so he may have something to give to someone in need. The thief has a life-dominating sin, he’s defined by it - until he becomes someone else – an honest worker. Another thing is how pontificating it is of someone else to interpret a personal tragedy of mine as a sign from God. What I’ve read of signs in the Bible, as best I can recall offhand – usually God announces ahead of time [before the event] that it will have a certain significance. I would think it’s kind of irresponsible or inefficient or just plain cruel of a benevolent God to let people run around guessing about something “heavy” going on in their life – wondering what God is trying to tell them. This brings me to my last point. Two years after we left TWI our daughter was born with Down syndrome. Still having so much of TWI’s mental baggage in my head, I’d have these random thoughts like “there must have been a big hole in my believing.. . it’s because I walked out on God” – pretty much typical of the guilt and worry Watered Garden talked about after leaving that loony bin. I tend to over think in situations, asking God “why did this happen to me?” My wife tends to bounce back quicker with a “what do I do now?” attitude. My wife helped me get past my self-centeredness, see our daughter as a person and continues to inspire all of us to support each other. We can’t fix every problem – but we can sure work together through every problem. Getting back to God’s omnipresence [told ya it’s my ramblin’ 2 cents ] – I do better when I remind myself of Paul’s situation. He kept reminding God about a problem he had [thorn in the flesh] – God said His grace was sufficient for the task.

Thanks Geisha - and I'll add Bridges' book to the list from your other post.

Hi Bliss, Good to see ya! Geez, your opening line had me in a flashback of being a kid going to the confessional: "Bless me father for I have sinned. My last positive confession was over a month ago. I've been so negative at work and twig lately and feel like I'm not getting anywhere in life. I'm thinking about going back to school and getting a degree but worried what others will think of me if I tell them I can't do as much for the ministry while I'm going to school." Fortunately T-Bone snaps out of his Viet Nam-esque posttraumatic daydream by a fellow Grease Spotter who says, "I ain't you're father in the word, kid – but maybe for your penance you should say 'I should not use PFAL as my only reference in the doctrinal forum' 500 times." It's good to be free of that tyranny!

Gosh thanks Twinky – well, I have come a long way since then. Don’t know how to quantify that academically – it’s mostly been just reading up on things that interest me. Back in my college days, I was a fine arts major and at the time didn’t see the point of learning all the other stuff in a typical liberal arts program. So a lot of it was lack of motivation - which hit me big time during a review by one of my professors. While he was critiquing my paintings when suddenly the practical side of life slapped me upside the head with a sobering thought “who the hell is gonna pay me to make them a painting.” Guess if I had to do it all over again with what I know of myself now I would have gone for a degree in something technical. Ah well, wish in one hand.. . and hold a PFAL book in the other – both worth about as much as a pile of crap. Sorry for the detour into my past – but I think this stuff sort of relates to this thread – after dropping out of college I was a prime target for TWI. Thinking over the sharp points Penworks listed in her first post, they have such resonance with me. I mean PFAL seemed like a magical power to give me answers to everything in life and the means to attain it. Boy was I gullible.

Geisha, thanks for the book list – will have to check out some of those from the library. I have MacDowell’s “Evidence” and Zacharias’ “Jesus Among other Gods” – great books. Very cool on your history degrees. It’s funny how things like history interest me now. Wasn’t the brightest kid academically and dropped out of college. Although I was working on my masters in PFAL for 12 years – but hey, dropped out of that too. I was wondering if you have ever read “Idols for Destruction: The Conflict of Faith and American Culture” By Herbert Schlossberg. I thought it was a very challenging read in the way it got me to re-examine my perspective and especially assumptions. Something one person said in review of this book on Amazon really struck me as so applicable for dealing with the TWI mindset: the power of your worldview lies in the fact that it is hidden.

Great thread idea and lots of helpful suggestions. The only thing I wanted to add was something else to mull over if one is still in the thinking-about-getting-out phase. Or maybe your thinking hasn’t even gone that far yet – it might just be a really uncomfortable-oppressively-nebulous-something-or-other feeling that now refuses to go away. It’s come around before but you’ve always managed to squelch it. What I suggest doing is face the nebulous cloud head-on. If you’ve been reading Grease Spot I’d venture to say some things here have resonated with you.. . or maybe not. But if so, try thinking about your various TWI experiences & beliefs in a slightly different manner. I don’t know how to describe it other than that it’s maybe a more objective – or even a cold, clinical approach. It’s sort of like being your own counselor. And it works something like this – anytime you come across something that hits you as anti-TWI but at the same time there’s something about it that it seems to strangely touch a nerve – then by all means explore that from every angle. I remember some of my initial reactions to Grease Spot were utter shock. Eventually I began to see some of the things that really bugged me came down to a weird battle in my head. It was a battle between some mindset that I adopted while in TWI and reflecting on certain experiences & plain reason that contradicted that mindset. Perhaps this is one of those times in life where no one else can supply an answer for you – for that will not satisfy this .. . weird gnawing itch in your head. It comes down to you alone – and what YOU think about it all. Well, keep it simple.. . to reiterate my suggestion – instead of ignoring those indistinct feelings or whatever you want to call them – try looking into them. It’s just asking yourself why does this or that bug you. Cheers & good luck T-Bone

Enjoyed reading this thread – thanks Skyrider for bumping it up. A lot going on here. Thought I'd throw in my 2 cents [well, maybe not MY 2 cents, since I'll be referring to two books]. About II Timothy 3:16 saying all scripture is inspired of God – there sure has been a lot written about how we got the "official" canon of scripture, but that's something I'm not qualified to debate nor have the desire to do so. As far as what's included in the "all", discussing this verse in "When Critics Ask" by Norman Geisler & Thomas Howe on page 505 state that whenever "scripture" [graphe in Greek] is used in the NT it always refers to authoritative and inspired writings whether or not it has the definite article in Greek. This word is used of the Hebrew scriptures [as in II Timothy 3:16] or NT writings such as II Peter 3:16 "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some hard things to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." Concerning II Peter 1:20, 21, "Hard Sayings of the Bible" by Walter Kaiser, Peter Davids, FF Bruce & Manfred Brauch, pages 726 & 727 points out that the concept that "prophecy of the scripture" in verse 20 equals the Old testament is reinforced in the next verse where Peter discusses the origin of the prophecy of scripture. Unlike the false teachers who are representing their own ideas, the OT writers [while II Peter 3:15 & 16 refers to Paul's writings, it is doubtful that the author thought of them as "prophecy" like the OT] spoke from God. Another interesting point from "Hard Sayings" is that the context of this passage seems to suggest Christ's presence in the second coming will make the limited light of scripture unnecessary at that point. The book goes on to say this is a helpful reminder to Christians. We are to value scripture as a support to our faith but it is not eternal – we are to worship the Lord and not scripture – scripture merely points us to the Lord. I think that was a big problem in TWI – where we adopted the mindset of worshipping the Bible – and really it was just vp's skewed interpretation of the Bible that was held in such high regard.

Dang! where's the guy with the knife when you need him.

Hmmm, maybe so Jeff Imagine a remake of Fahrenheit 451 starring vp as chief of the Fire Department. Let's tweak the plot a little: in the oppressive future, the fireman's duty is to destroy all books [all without exception or all without distinction.. . or is it all with - oh hell, we'll work on the screenplay later] except those authored by vp.

Thanks, Shellon - that's funny.. . and a little creepy at the same time. I get mesmerized by things like that - they creep me out but I can't stop watching them. Like the talking pepperoni on that Tabasco Sauce commercial. Yowsa!

Great thread – glad I peeked in this forum. Chiller Theatre and there was also Shock Theatre - hosted by Zacherle, who lived in a crypt with his wife, always called her "My Dear". If memory serves me right she was a brain [or big thing of cauliflower] suspended on a string that would bob around Zacherle. What a wacky TV show host – loved it. He'd cut in during a movie with some wisecrack – like if he was showing The Mummy, he'd but it and quip "this guy is all wrapped up in himself". He sometimes filled in for Dick Clark when American Bandstand had a road show – and he had a nickname The Cool Ghoul. He always reminded me of the Phantom of the Opera http://en.wikipedia....i/John_Zacherle http://www.tvacres.c...r_zacherley.htm Now if ya wanna talk about a movie that scared the bajeebers out of a six year old kid – I have to mention The H-Man. My older sister took me to see it. Transformed by hydrogen bomb testing, this liquid-shimmering-silhouette-of-a-man oozed around dissolving people as he comes in contact with them – leaving only their hair and clothes. Yikes! He got one lady in the bathtub and then there was a sneak attack on this guy walking down some steps – H-Man just trickled through the steps and up his pant leg. Needless to say, baths and going to the basement were nixed off my to-do list for weeks. I awoke one night from having a nightmare about the H-Man being right outside my bedroom door. Being kind of shook up now, I felt the urge to take a leak real bad. Not wanting to alert the H-Man of my movements, I sort of whispered towards my parents' room "Mom.. . mom, he's here." No luck – she never heard me. Realizing it was too risky to raise my voice I figured my best option was to pee the bed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_H-Man I think it was because of my traumatic H-Man experience I leaned more toward Sci Fi stuff – most aliens back then didn't give me the gosh-awful creeps like H-dude. A few others I've enjoyed and wanted to mention: The Thing from Another World [1951] The Bride of Frankenstein Invasion of the Body Snatchers Them They Live [1988] hey, I know it's not an old monster movie classic but this movie is so doggone funny! When I wrote Them it reminded me of They Live; that's my story and I'm sticking to it. [and don't know if I can include some Sci Fi stuff too, actually like it a little more than monster movies] Forbidden Planet Invaders from Mars [somebody mentioned that earlier] Kronos I married a Monster from Outer Space [this was was a hoot!] The Day the Earth Stood Still [1951] A few of the above were re-made – a thing that bothers me about some remakes, is when they change it so much that if it weren't for the same title you could pass it off as a new movie. Like The Thing [1982] & The Day the Earth Stood Still [2008] both are not bad in themselves – but when compared to the originals they come off worse than what they are. Invasion of the Body Snatchers was done 4 times. The last one, The Invasion [2007] with Nicole Kidman is my least favorite but I find them all enjoyable for the slightly different plot twists. Some originals & remakes I just like because they're both done well – I'm thinking of King Kong [1933] and King Kong [2005]. Although the 2005 is very long I like the great job they did with special effects/computer graphics and the more developed relationships. Yeah, it's getting close to Halloween and we're about due for watching Young Frankenstein again: Fredrick: Would you mind telling me whose brain I did put in? Igor: And you won't be angry? Fredrick: I will *not* be angry! Igor: Abby Someone. Fredrick: Abby Someone. Abby Who? Igor: Abby Normal. Fredrick: Abby Normal. Igor: I'm almost sure that was the name. [edited before the monsters come back.. . I've said too much already.. . I'm outta here]

Yeah – maybe we should get a bumper sticker made: "It doesn't take a mental deficiency to join TWI, but it's a great place to get one." There's something about making a big mistake that often puts such a fire under your butt to never do that again. It seems like critical thinking skills come back with a vengeance for many ex-TWI folks. Critical thinking involves a lot of work. And maybe an important part of it is keeping a transparent thought process. Meaning that as much as possible keep an eye on the "machinery" as we analyze something. Each gear, linkage, trigger, etc. of mental machinery represents some assumption, fact, inference, logic, idea, etc. in the thought process. In an intricate system, a defective part can easily gum up the works. An interesting part in the whole process is assumptions. They're great for an efficient operation but will sabotage the process if they're faulty. Like automation, assumptions can speed up a process. For example, if I do a simple topical study of forgiveness – I will assume a translation like NIV, KJV, NASB, or ESV will do just fine. I don't think it's necessary to delve into every critical Greek text or Masoretic text to verify translators didn't royally screw up every passage. As a Christian I assumed the Bible was true. One of my big mistakes while in TWI, was in assuming vp was both competent and honest in handling the Scriptures. Both assumptions I held are very obvious to me now – but of the two, the latter one [the vp assumption] was the treacherous saboteur.

Our daughter overheard us talking about an episode of "South Park" last night. It must have given her food for thought because she announced this morning "Lucifer is Dick Cheney".. . By the way, loved your poem Invisible Dan! But on a more serious note – you make some excellent points, Jeff. I'm reminded of the typical TWI mindset of seeing devil spirits behind every tree. Being out of that insanity for quite some time now – I've come to think such focus does more harm than good. Which also brings to mind something I've noticed since then too – how little the Bible talks about the devil and devil spirits. Never tallied up the ratio of how much Scripture is devoted to certain subjects – but having read the Bible through many times as well as studying several systematic theologies I'd venture to say offhand the subjects covered the most – by which I mean Scripture's main focus are God, Jesus Christ, man's fallen nature & redemption. And in regards to fallen man & redemption I see more of commands, moral demands & standards for dealing with sin than any directives to keeping one eye peeled for Lucifer or devil spirits. A great author on Christian counseling, Jay Adams, talked about the spiritual battlefront being more inside than without – in reference to our sinful tendencies no doubt. I think it was John MacArthur who said the best way to prepare for spiritual battle is by living an upright, morally sound life. I believe that's some healthy advice.

I have to disagree with you regarding your idea of real critical thinking. I'm certainly no expert on critical thinking and definitely consider myself damaged goods as far as what I think of my personal faith after my TWI experience – but I'm of the opinion that a person could develop competent critical thinking skills regardless of their belief system. I also feel that if I focus critical thinking skills on my own belief system – it tends to be a good reality check on my point of view. I know what you mean about input being filtered – but just being honest I feel we all do that to some degree, after all that is how we interpret and navigate through the world around us– but I do agree that if one is prone to "force" all input through this filter they're not thinking critically and may very well be deluded. Please keep in my mind I'm not representative of a typical Christian, ideal Christian or just plain Christian. I said I was damaged goods so I'm probably a screwed-up Christian. About the only belief that makes me feel comfortable is feeling that the God of the Bible is for real. But that could be wishful thinking. And actually - whatever has gone before us - and whatever is going on around us in real time - one has to make a few assumptions one way or the other regarding the big picture. Some things cannot be verified so I guess we each address the big questions differently hoping we're on the right path, or maybe just move on and forget about it or I dunno.. . see what episode of Boston Legal is on tonight. I do have my doubts at times and when it comes to a lot of things in the Bible I either don't understand it or sometimes wonder what God wants me to do about the stuff I do understand. And in all honesty, I do tend to over-think stuff and so it all boils down to simple creed of living by the golden rule, loving God & neighbor. I have no desire to evangelize and don't worry about other faiths – and boy, this is gonna sound sacrilegious or something but lately have even thought God may have several programs going on – I'm just trying to figure out the necessary details of the one I'm in. Critical thinking would have made for a shorter term of involvement with TWI. For instance on just one of their many insidious tenets, I should have seen through their "law of believing" doctrine in my 12 years with them – but did I go by the lack of results my five senses registered? Nope! It took me a few years after leaving TWI of intense Bible study & thoughtful reflection of experiences to realize the ability to magically manipulate reality through the power of my believing is merely a fantasy and huge waste of time & energy! Just to clarify - I'm not saying that critical thinking can determine if one's particular belief system is true. All I'm saying is that critical thinking when applied to our own belief system may help to refine it in terms of some kind of intellectual integrity and draw up a more realistic map of "reality" - what's going on in my life and the world at large. The realistic map of "reality" I'm referring to is the way my belief system explains what's going on in the real world, how life works, and if it all seems to make sense. Again referring back to TWI's "law of believing" – besides there being no scriptural support for it, I've also found in life, it is an impotent substitute for simple virtues such as hard work, honesty, the golden rule, self reliance and compassion that are in plain sight and easily understood. Speaking of having some more comfortable a-priori assumptions about life in general – I could be wrong but I think we are drawn to what we feel is most "comfortable" anyway – whatever that means – maybe something that seems to fit in with other parts of our belief system. I also feel it should be grounded in reality – in terms of its basic tenets being compatible with the real world – not some bizarre mindset that has you spinning your wheels and thinking you're going places fast. And in speaking about my own faith – I believe God created us and so faith and reason are compatible and complementary. [edited after having a serious bout of critical thinking ]

I just started reading an interesting book "How the Mind Works" by Steven Pinker [author of "The Language Instinct"] and thought it had some intriguing ideas that may address your question – maybe not – but it got me thinking more about what it takes to fine tune critical thinking skills; thinking about my own thinking process. ~~ Pinker talked about the mind being like a well-designed system – the components performing their functions as if by magic to the casual observer. He said the faculty with which we ponder the world has no ability to peer inside itself or our other faculties to see what makes it tick. Philosophers get into that big time with stuff like epistemology, the analysis of how we know. It's fascinating when Pinker gets into the reverse-engineering involved in building a humanlike robot to perform just one function. He says the gap between imaginative robots and real ones is his starting point because it shows the first step in knowing ourselves. The mind is an incredible thing and we take so much for granted. He says the reason there are no humanlike robots is not that the idea of a mechanical mind is misguided but that the engineering problems we humans solve as we see, process, plan and act upon every day are far more challenging than landing on the moon or sequencing the human genome. It's sort of funny – how much stuff the human mind has figured out – and yet how some aspects of the mind still remain a mystery. Throw in stuff about genetics, emotions, desires, dreams, drives, environment, and whatever else is involved in our makeup – geez, trying to figure out exactly what were the reasons behind me joining TWI is beyond me. .. . well, let's just say I don't want to repeat such a stupid mistake again – a good reason to work on those critical thinking skills for sure. ~~ Mulling over the definition you quoted from Wikipedia – I see critical thinking skills as an intricate system of diagnostic tools and that because of the complexity and numerous tasks they perform requires periodic maintenance & calibration. You need a diagnostic tool to verify your diagnostic tool is remaining true to some standard. It's using critical thinking to check out our own critical thinking. I believe sometimes we change our minds on an issue not because someone on the other side has so thoroughly convinced us. It might have something to do with suspending our assault and reviewing our own game plan; finding something amiss that moves us to rethink the problem. For me it's often finding a faulty assumption or bias on my part – or maybe just becoming aware of how much my assumption or bias can have an influence. I don't think there's so much of a problem with having assumptions and preferences as there is if I'm not aware of their presence – and perhaps just as important, how much weight each carries in coloring my viewpoint.

LOL - thanks for the firesign clip Waysider!!! Love it! First Church of Science .. . fiction.. . encouraging you to write your congressman .. . assuming he's not in jail.

Let's see now.. . in response to several posters asking for scripture references or citing some sources you mention a movie - a movie that you never saw and don't know what it's about. Now that's funny! Are you sure this "possible explanation" wasn't meant for the Silly forum?

oh boy.. . don't be alarmed or anything but if nyunknown chimes in with the same answer I think all three of us should seek professional help.. . uhm.. . in absurd comedy writing - yeah that's the ticket! [edited in lieu of getting it right write the first time]