T-Bone

English: cut the grass French: mow de lawn

Hope you had a good birthday...missed you at the BBQ Love, Tonto & T-Bone

Great tune, George!....funny, what came to mind when I saw this thread title was I love that movie! One of the best lines: Don't let your mouth write a check your bu++ can't cash. Thanks Like an Eagle and Jeast.

Great responses on this thread! Thanks everyone. I hear ya, Fooled Again II. I can relate to what you feel - and I appreciate your honesty & humility! Those are useful tools on the journey, IMHO... After I left TWI, I spent a number of years in a confused and sometimes scary state…and I don't mean my home state of NY either . It's been a loooooong deconstruction process…and by no means finished. But it's no longer as scary or confusing…those feelings being eclipsed by a newfound taste for adventure, growing confidence in analytical thinking skills…..and tempered with a realistic outlook on life – which is accepting the fact that there's just a lot of things I can't figure out. At its most critical moment, my crisis of faith boiled down to a single core element – is there a God? To which I answered yes! My next question was – do I believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God? To which I also answered yes! That was my taking it back to square one. And it was from that point my spiritual journey really got exciting. I've pasted a couple of excerpts of my posts from other threads [see below] to give you a peek into the details of my journey – but I'm not suggesting I've figured it all out or that my process of doing things is the only way. And to answer your questions – I offer a condensed version – which boils down to three books that come immediately to mind: Understanding the Bible by John Stott. Still my all time favorite. Gives a good, simple scope of the Bible along with a rock solid method of interpretation: Look for the natural sense [the obvious, logical meaning], look for the original sense [historical, cultural, grammatical], and look for the general sense [in harmony with the rest of Scripture]. Scripture Twisting: 20 Ways the Cults Misread the Bible by James Sire. One of the first books I read after leaving TWI. It's a great book not only for identifying where TWI screwed up Scripture, but helps to develop critical thinking skills when reading the Bible. Critical Thinking: Tools for Taking Charge of Your Professional and Personal Life by Richard Paul & Linda Elder. Another great book for developing your analytical skills. And so applicable – not just in personal Bible study, but in unraveling the TWI mindset, understanding your own viewpoint…and it comes in handy for discussions on Grease Spot :) . I wish you the best on your journey. Love & peace, T-Bone

Yes, Kenwas – your experience fits into what I think of as the tale of two TWIs. There’s the Christian-like front experienced by folks on the lower rung of TWI’s hierarchy. These are folks who are not Corps, support TWI to some degree, take the classes, blah, blah, blah. Then there’s the folks who joined the Way Corps program, at first believing they are signing up for some altruistic reason. However, it is the nature of the beast to homogenize these poor souls into becoming a tool for its dark underbelly. My wife, son, & I were in Family Corps 11. And you are right – for while in residence we got to experience first hand the legalism, the hypocrisy, the squelching of individuality, the suppression of thinking, and the manipulation & intimidation by fear. When we left in 86 – we wrote letters and made phone calls to folks who sponsored us explaining our concerns and doubts with TWI….and do you know what? For the most part, being just your average Joe believer – they couldn’t understand what our dilemma was all about. What’s even worse, is to think about the response of many of our fellow Corps around the time of the Passing of the Patriarch controversy – one couple said they’re running PFAL classes as much as possible. Yikes – the depth of indoctrination for some is kind of scary!

Dang, Mark - that's funny! Did you make that up?

Welcome to Grease Spot, Kenwas! Gaining a wider perspective is such a big deal. Do you remember a line from PFAL – you can't go beyond what you are taught. If that were true, we'd never have discoveries, inventions, technological & medical advances, etc. TWI had so many manipulative ideas that suppressed our critical and creative thinking processes. And that's what's great about Grease Spot – you'll find such a wide variety of perspectives and experiences. A heck of a place for give & take. I look forward to reading your posts. Also a hearty welcome to Bucks4now - speaking of perspective, I love it when we get input on Grease Spot from someone who wasn't involved with TWI. Many times it has been the feedback from someone untouched by TWI that has helped me to better understand my own experience. [Penguin, I don't know if it will be of much help for posting pictures – but in the Testing forum, I have a thread where I share some technical tips – things I've figured out [i'm not a PC expert – just find out enough to get by], not saying they're all correct but they work for me. see link below] http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=297563 Waitress, how about a round of cappuccinos for everybody

I agree with you! It just may be God is behind the rain of criticism on vp. Read about the consequences of disobedience in Deuteronomy 28 and especially the attendant slam to one's reputation in verse 37, You shall become a horror, a proverb, and a taunt among all the people…NASB . And if that's just out-dated dispensational sentiment for some folks, try I Corinthians 5:1 on for size, It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist among the Gentiles…NASB . Think about the big picture surrounding this verse. Some say even going by the pagan standards of that culture, Corinth was so morally corrupt that its very name became synonymous with debauchery and moral depravity – to "corinthianize" meant to participate in gross immorality. And in that context, Paul said "This sin is so vile even your pagan neighbors are grossed out." vp was a man without scruples. His "ethics" took hypocrisy to new heights. He brought all this upon himself. TWI is a cult – based on the personality of vp. It was always about him! I think the reason he promoted "the absent Christ" was to shift the focus on himself. He loved being referred to as "our father in the Word." He was a prolific plagiarist who gloried in the achievements of others by stamping his name all over it. He'd hawk his teaching the Word like it hasn't been known since the first century bu11$hi+, relished in the adulation - eating it up like a pig loving slop every time folks would introduce him as the man of God for this day and time. The "absent Christ" pronounced a severe judgment on religious hypocrites who usurp the authority of God: Matthew 15:12-14 NASB 12 Then the disciples came and said to Him, "Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this statement?" 13 But He answered and said, "Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted. 14 "Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit." And that makes me think of Gamaliel's advice in Acts 5:38, 39 NASB 38 "So in the present case, I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown; 39 but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God." What makes you think God was ever behind vp? Rather…what if God is behind the plague consuming vp's reputation. Perhaps it has been His invisible hand uncorking the "lock boxes" of vp's victims.

Sushi, around the home I’m always running into an old friend with the same name – but it’s no accident that my dog’s name is T-Bone…Thanks for the hints – from what I’m able to gather on the immediate context [your hydrogen atoms/electron/positive joke of post # 69] and Internet research on “litmus” – “base” in chemistry usually refers to an aqueous substance that can accept protons and is the chemical opposite of acids. Litmus is a water-soluble mixture of different dyes extracted from lichens. The one I’m familiar with is a test strip used to check pool water for acidity – the litmus test of the water is a pH indicator. One base says to the other “let’s get the ‘h’ outta here.” Wow, good one Sushi! I love it when I have to do research on a joke [honestly, I really do]. Most people don’t appreciate the hard work that goes into comedy . Maybe that’s why they’re called “groaners” – in reference to the enormous strain the comedic efforts put on the funny bone. And speaking of comedic research, it took me awhile to come up with this one in post # 5:

Excathedra, I love it! Sushi...I need some help on your last one. Don't make me call in George St. George...Are we talking like base proteins, DNA or something? Chemistry isn't my long suit. Heck, science isn't my long suit - just science fiction...and mostly fiction at that.

Excerpts from John Lynn's June 2008 letter are in bold blue and key words in red: This hits me as the typical spin control used by TWI leadership that always painted up the media and "other Christians" [i.e. anyone who claims to be a Christian but is not in TWI] as the enemy, sowing disinformation. After all, everyone is wrong and he is right. And as for what's coming out of the mouths of "disgruntled former followers" – he suggests we need his powers of discernment to determine what's true or false. No thanks – I'll do my own thinking. He says he wants to present a better redemptive view of TWI – suggesting what he has to offer will offset the bad stuff. After reading, not only the whole letter of June 2008 [thanks BFH for posting the link], but also the detailed list of 26 topics that he said TWI mishandled and his March 1988 letter – I believe Lynn would have clung to the ever listing deck of the Titanic saying no problem…a minor setback…this is a great ship…we can patch things up. Perhaps the following paragraph indicates how entrenched he still is in the TWI mindset and that he's still committed to maintaining a grand delusion. The big whopper of an assumption in the above statement is that TWI was following God and His Word in the first place. The founding president vp was a prolific plagiarist, egotistical, delusional, drunken sexual predator…and sociopath to boot. TWI was nothing more than an organization based on the personality of vp. Folks' understanding of God and the Bible were based on the doctrines and mannerisms they absorbed from vp. The following portion of his letter – I think is the thing that drives Lynn to salvage the essence of TWI or feeds his hope that there's something able to compensate for any defects: I said this on the Who is John Lynn? thread – Lynn thinks he's the greatest salesman in the world today. And what he's selling is the same old delusions of grandeur that vp had. And if you want to cherish the sappy idea of God leading vp to Bullinger's stuff – well, then maybe vp should have been a Bullinger book salesman. But I guess that wouldn't have satisfied his taste for power or sexual appetite. TWI had a mass-market approach with the PFAL class – there were enough benefits of the class listed on the back of the Green Card to appeal to just about anyone. PFAL was THE "package" – a ready-made belief system with a cookie-cutter process for homogenizing thousands of young men and women into walking-talking-PFAL-selling-machines. That's about all I want to say on this. I've spent way too much time already on a delusional salesman.

Good one, Sushi ! …which reminds me, ~~ What did the U-235 say inside the warhead as it plummeted to the earth? "Man, I've got a feeling something really bad is about to happen – let's split!"

Who is John Lynn? He's the greatest salesman in the world today...uhm...well, actually he thinks he's the greatest salesman in the world today....personally, I think he's delusional.

Welcome to Grease Spot, Finally! A round of cappuccinos for everyone.

You're absolutely right, Mark! Thanks...and I think we've witnessed an age-old principle on this thread - in a multitude of writers there is comedy....or at least the possibility of another groaner [that is the title of this thread, after all].

Very incisive post! I think you've nailed it, Oak!

Reviewing the minutes from the last meeting: In other words, the sins of the communicator usurp the authority of the Word of God. ~~ That's a confusing analogy when it comes to the communication of truth. You need to define "played properly or with love". Furthermore, music appeals to emotions and our sense of harmony/beauty whereas truth appeals to the intellect and logic. Another thing to consider - usually a musician adds something to the piece – even if it's a variation of volume or attack of certain notes, or maybe even a completely different interpretation of the piece. Personally, I like Jimi Hendrix's interpretation of The Star Spangled Banner in Woodstock. Some would consider that interpretation wrong. I think it's a matter of taste. He hit all the right notes as far as I can tell – I mean, I recognized the tune – but what I love is the way he played those notes and the addition of other stuff too [the guitar sounds that mimicked the bombs bursting in air]. And considering the context/audience, I believe Hendrix played the tune properly and with love. But for argument's sake - if we're going to float this music/truth analogy across the board – let's see if we can make it more applicable. If a preacher just reads the Bible without making a single comment – perhaps that would be considered playing the music "properly" – or playing it straight – not introducing any interpretation by the musician – he is merely quoting it verbatim. But throw some select verses together and make comments on them – most folks call that a sermon or commentary – and as such – there's the possibility that some of the comments [interpretation] are wrong. And while we're at it – we should also consider the context/audience of a sermon. Like vp saying to a woman he is molesting in the motor coach unto the pure all things are pure. Anything done in the love of God is okay. Or showing his favorite porn video to the Family Corps and saying I've so renewed my mind that this stuff doesn't bother me. The combination of context, certain behavior, audience and choice of words definitely renders an interpretation of those scriptural references that is totally repugnant to the moral intent of the Bible [iMHO, of course!] and I would think to any Christian with even half a conscience.

My two favorites on this thread. ~~ Whereupon a man of the Hindu faith, seeing this horrific transaction exclaimed, "Holy cow, you're not actually going to eat that are you?!?!" [FYI: As a devout Hindu, he only gives out karma apples every Halloween and to date his house has never been egged.] [edited so as to fit into the cosmic stream of this thread's consciousness]

Yup…afraid so Spectrum.....Which brings me to another desperate attempt at tying some loose ends of this thread together: A charming Knock Knock joke walks into a bar. The termites were drooling over the scrumptious looking dark wood of the door. But why did the metallurgist cross the aisle? To get a good look at those knockers.

Brilliant observation, Mstar1 - thanks!

The Oxford Desk Dictionary and Thesaurus says "tradition" is a custom, opinion, or belief handed down to posterity… With that in mind, refer again to another key verse in Matthew – Matthew 15:3 NASB And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?" What were vp's & LCM's opinions/beliefs on adultery and sexual promiscuity? These things are clearly forbidden in the Bible – are they not? And yet, by their behavior and comments [like unto the pure all things are pure, anything done in the love of God is okay] as a supposed minister of god – ahem, as the-man-o-god-for-this-day-and-time-and-hour set a bold example for transgressing the moral laws of God! It's not a matter of making the Word of God any less true – it's the hypocrite's way of redefining truth on their own terms. So when it's talking about adultery in the Bible, it's really talking about spiritual adultery, cuz ya know, God is a jealous God, He doesn't like you chasing after other gods [said in my best vp dialect].

Matthew 15: 1-9 NASB 1 Then some Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 2 "Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread." 3 And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 "For God said, ' HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,' and, ' HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.' 5 "But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God," 6 he is not to honor his father or his mother.' And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 "You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you: 8 ' THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME. 9 'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'" Mark 7:5-13 NASB 5 The Pharisees and the scribes asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with impure hands?" 6 And He said to them, "Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: ' THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME. 7 ' BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.' 8 "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men." 9 He was also saying to them, "You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 "For Moses said, ' HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER'; and, ' HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH'; 11 but you say, 'If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),' 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that."

Your post made me think of a psychological term: compartmentalization – the isolation of one’s thoughts, feelings, and beliefs from each other. The Penguin Dictionary of Psychology by Arthur Reber & Emily Reber, cite one example of a deeply devout Roman Catholic biologist whose research is on birth control. The article goes on to mention Karen Horney [a pioneering theorist in personality, psychoanalysis and feminine psychology] used the term to describe a sense of disconnectedness that comes from the excessive practice of isolating thoughts - and that it is a defense mechanism to shield one from the anxiety and tension produced by any inconsistencies. I think compartmentalization is one of the key dynamics in the TWI-mindset. It turns a blind eye to hypocrisy, insulates one from reason, and can even make the conscience vanish…Fascinating to think about the weird frame of mind I had while in TWI – so indoctrinated by their nonsense [which is typically a grand compartmentalization of beliefs] I used to view upper leadership as beyond reproach – unable to see the incongruity between beliefs & conduct.

Please don't take offense, but this sort of reminds me of the smokescreens generated around the time I left in 86. I remember Chris G33r telling folks not to just look at the facts but to look at the truth behind the facts. And the best diversionary tactic that certain upper echelon bozos deployed was making like all the controversy & issues were really being stirred up by devil spirits. IMHO, the Bible lays a lot more responsibility on the individual than the typical TWI-follower cares to acknowledge. I think this is evident in the way Jesus confronted sin. Luke 17:1-3 NASB 1 He said to His disciples, "It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to him through whom they come! 2 "It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumble. 3 "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him." How does the above passage fit with the way TWI handles sin? Did Jesus say "Don't blame the guy who caused another to stumble – blame a devil spirit instead" ? I'm a Christian – and believe there is an intense spiritual battle going on – not only around us – but within as well! We can be our own worst enemies sometimes – through sin – as we wrestle with our own fallen nature/sinful tendencies. It seems some folks just gave up on the battle within – letting sin dominate their lives. Why would devil spirits have to waste their energy on someone who is already hellbent on evil. IMHO, the cold hard fact of many a "demise" in TWI was due to a weak stance on sin! Everyone can thank the New Knoxville Gnostic [vp] for that. And THAT is THE reason for the demise of the whole Mickey Mouse organization anyway – it was a sham – built on the personality of vp – with an agenda that served his sinful passions. The mantle vp passed onto LCM was infused with a taste for adultery. Listen to the through the fog interview if you haven't already. "What devil spirits were operating in The Way?" – more like, what con artists were operating in the way! I think vp's idea of discerning of spirits was being able to find the Drambuie in a liquor store he wasn't familiar with. Proverbs 6 has a stern warning against adultery. I'm inclined to think that's what really happened spiritually. A person brings destruction on himself when he commits adultery. Proverbs 6:27-29 NASB 27 Can a man take fire in his bosom And his clothes not be burned? 28 Or can a man walk on hot coals And his feet not be scorched? 29 So is the one who goes in to his neighbor's wife; Whoever touches her will not go unpunished.

Some great points, Oak and I think there's something to what you say - especially in post # 7. I've thought about this thread for awhile...wondered if rather than a change in the personality of God [from OT to NT] the issue could be framed as a change in the timespan between actions and consequences. In the OT, judgment seems more immediate [disobedient people received curses, plagues, were conquered, etc.]. Whereas in the NT, we find passages that call for obedience now - or there will be hell to pay later. There are passages in OT & NT that show He is a God of love, mercy, forgiveness - AND a God of justice and judgment. In my opinion, the difference to note is the time-frame of God's justice - the immediate context of one's life [depicted in many OT judgments] or the remote context of eternity as expressed in the NT. ...And I agree on needing a definition of good...guess everyone has their own idea of what is good.