T-Bone

"A thesis statement declares what you believe and what you intend to prove." from http://www.sdst.org/shs/library/thesis.html You have yet to prove your thesis. For evidence, all you offer are assumptions and wishful thinking. Whereas, lots of folks on Grease Spot have provided tons of evidence to prove vp was a plagiarist.

Dang - you beat me two to one, Waysider! Good ones! Thou hast spoken great truths, Ahen and Ahen.

If you shoot a possessed chicken it may come back as a poultrygeist.

30 years ago [summer time] I was sitting in the Advanced Class at Emporia, Kansas…I remember a video of Doctor Nobel talking about the Marxist Minstrels…he said something like the Beatles were actually promoting communism in America with one of their tunes:"…back in the US…back in the US…back in the USSR…" …Yes, and Mickey Mouse is wrong seed! Yes, what a fantastic time of utter nonsense hosted by Fat Man and Little Boy, two of the most destructive weapons in this our day and time and hour.

Some more great points there, Oak!...Trinitarian/Unitarian issues are complex. Laying aside vp's dishonesty [plagiarism and flair for fabrication], intellectually he was way out of his league on this and most theological topics [addressing ideas with little thought and gaps of logic, like you were saying]. But the strength of his marketing ploy was controversy. Four crucified, the day Christ died, JCNG, etc, were used like selling points to distinguish vp's ministry from "the competition" – often referred to as the churches or churchianity. Like infomercials that fabricate a need: "Is your Bible falling to pieces because only two were crucified with Jesus? Have you ever wondered how to get back to the original God-breathed Word? Are you worshipping the one true God?" A grand assumption was sold in his infomercials: "I'm the only one rightly dividing the Word." Controversy was used to polarize sides. Little things became big issues because "the integrity of the Word is always at stake." You were either on vp's side or on the outside [of TWI]!

Wow, Oakspear - that is a tremendous point!!!!......I mean....that is simply amazing...I always appreciate the clarity and critical thinking you bring to every thread...thanks a million!

I get your drift, Jeast – and think that's the right attitude to have in all of this. Your post reminded me of a few verses: Matthew 7:1-5 NASB 1 Do not judge so that you will not be judged. 2 For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. Galatians 6:1 NASB Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted. I think Matthew 7 addresses hypocritically judging others. We're in no position to help another when we are not aware of nor address our own faults. Galatians 6 implies there will be times when one Christian may have to make a judgment call on another – while keeping in mind one's own susceptibility to sin. While we're on this subject – I'd also like to add I think it's our Christian duty to speak up and address the sins and faults of TWI and the offshoots. Perhaps the most sobering aspect of vp's moral depravity is that this is what happens when sin goes unchecked. You can almost bet vp never bowed his heart to the corrective elements of Matthew 7 and Galatians 6 – very few ever confronted him on his behavior. And when they did he just blew them off! And even laying his moral depravity aside – we can see the practical consequences of his twisted doctrines that migrated to the offshoots. They [vp's twisted doctrines] engender the same attitude of arrogance and sabotage one's decision-making process. Grease Spot is truly a godsend, in my opinion! It's not only therapeutic for those who've left but serves as a warning to others.

Yup…the response of the person without the PFAL-colored glasses makes sense and honors Scripture.

I'm with you, Waysider. Very thoughtful responses, Brushstroke!

Ditto on Hassan's books, Penworks…and let me throw in a couple more: Scripture Twisting: 20 Ways the Cults Misread the Bible by James Sire and The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by David Johnson & Jeff VanVonderen.

Seth, I'm a theist - but would definitely get into checking out that stuff...I've always found it enjoyable to explore other viewpoints from folks I'm familiar with and in such a friendly environment as Grease Spot....Don't think I'd have much to contribute - but I certainly would read a lot.

Chuck, your honesty and humbleness is a beautiful thing! I think Waysider made a good call – your concerns wouldn’t be a big deal if you were “lost.” The Evans’ post resonated with me – reminding me of my own crisis of faith and spiritual journey. The way I look at it – these questions & doubts that hound us come from some place in our mind that was kept in check by the TWI mindset. Just think of all those passages in the Bible that direct us to prove all things, to examine ourselves, to reflect on our ways, to commune with our own heart, etc. Perhaps these questions and doubts have a godly design – like some kind of internal diagnostic system – to keep us honest and humble…and to keep us reaching toward God. Part of my crisis of faith had to do with realizing much of the stuff I learned from TWI had little to do with bringing me closer to God. It sure was comfortable living in that mindset with the false assurance from their doctrines. But once awakened – there came a sharp sense of emptiness TWI [/b]is similar to the Gnostics who believed salvation was through their secret knowledge.]. Their doctrines not only kept me out of touch with reality – but more importantly out of touch with God! After leaving TWI, I began thinking of the Bible as a means to an end [connecting with God] rather than an end in itself [becoming a Bible know-it-all]. This, of course, is an ongoing journey. I wish you the best on your journey! Love & peace, T-Bone

The I Thessalonians 2:13 you cited in your post # 43 – is in reference to the effect of the Word of God in a person – which you even said citing Vines' definition of the "effectual": That I don't have a problem with [the effect produced in a man] – there's a similar same idea expressed in Hebrews 4:2 – the Word does not profit someone [again, in reference to the person] if it is not combined with faith. I think it's stretching these passages out of context to assume or suggest they apply to anything other than to the effect of the Word of God in the person of faith.

In other words, vp saying in PFAL that the law of believing works for saint and sinner alike, portrays God as a puppet on a stick. After all, vp also said in the class God would have to change all the laws of the universe NOT to accommodate your believing…That vp thought of this “law” as big enough to circumvent the gospel message is obvious from his own account of the alleged healing of the man’s arm in India – vp emphasized the Indian man didn’t even need to believe in Jesus.

Lots of good wisdom here…thought I’d throw in my two cents – a penny for each point. One of the biggest things I’ve realized from my experience during and after TWI is that doctrine affects practice. When you draw upon the principles of your belief system in a decision-making context this becomes readily apparent…And I think decision-making issues become a BIGGER DEAL when a couple gets married – because the details, priorities, consequences, etc., touch at least TWO people – more if they have kids. It helps if both people are sort of on the same page. My other point is how TWI folks tend to have an inflexible belief system. Arguments for some of their beliefs are intellectually weak [like the law of believing, vp’s doctrines were God-breathed, their version of charismatic principles]. And because of that, resort to a mindless defense of their position by simply reiterating TWI doctrine. And in my opinion, a lot of their bullying tactics are due to this mental insecurity. They can make the littlest thing a big issue if it challenges their belief system – even if it’s the challenging details of reality…In a dilemma [or some situation where two people have to work together to solve a problem], when you mix a TWI person with a non-TWI person – the TWI person will typically “spiritualize” everything, ignore common sense, polarize sides and endeavor to make a mountain out of a molehill.

And don't forget Mr.T's warning about the parasites and leeches.

Hi Brushstroke and welcome to Grease Spot! I like the approach your priest suggested and going by everything you've said on this and your other thread you seem like a very sharp individual. And like Waysider was saying - I wish I had your smarts when I was your age.

Some who have left TWI, found another title more fitting for vp: idol Here's what Simon thinks of TWI's favorite idol:

Word Wolf, thanks for your informative posts - and especially for post # 23 the changes made in the White Book [eliminating the man schooled in the Holy Spirit in the later edition]. Great find, brother!!!!!!

Sure! No prob, Mike ! :)

Maybe you don't see a way around it – but as Word Wolf pointed out Mike will always find a way: By the way Jen-O, nice point about I Corinthians 3 and deception.

And speaking of Bullinger - that reminds me of a whole other aspect of vp's plagiarism [which by the way, biblically falls into the categories of stealing and lying] - his incompetence is revealed. Like an impostor who picks up on the technical jargon of experts and tries to blend in - but when the actual work is in front of him that requires such expertise - he displays his ineptness. Case in point: the difference between how Bullinger handled II Peter 1:20 [No prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation] and how vp handled it. In How to Enjoy the Bible, pages 186 to 188, Bullinger says according to the CONTEXT II Peter 1:20 addresses the ORIGIN of prophecy and NOT a word about its interpretation - it is about its source...In PFAL, pages 145 to 147, vp puts the emphasis of II Peter 1:20 being about its interpretation rather than its origin. After reading the entire chapter II Peter 1 [and even the entire book for that matter] - I think Bullinger had it right. And I think it says a lot about one who was supposedly an expert on biblical research [vp] - that he didn't even practice what he preached - letting The Word "interpret itself" in the verse, CONTEXT, or previous usage as he put it on page 147 of PFAL. <_< But far be it from me to tarnish TWI's favorite idol. The man was an "expert" - for when it came to the field of fraud - he was outstanding in his field!... And now you know the rest of the story...good day! [edited in order to plagiarize from Paul Harvey ]

Mike, I was merely pointing out the fact that your post advocated a mindless process of absorbing vp's stuff. Sorry you took it so hard.

In other words, in order to achieve the maximum absorption rate you’ll have to turn this thing off: