T-Bone

Dot, happy birthday ! love, Tonto & T-Bone

Well, Mike you've got an incomplete checklist in your post # 611. Remember I revised it in my post # 423 [shown below] – it's now up to SEVEN of YOUR claims that I asked you to prove: Matter of fact, Don't Worry referred to these SEVEN issues in his post # 520, even categorizing them: I’m tempted to pull an old TWI stunt and answer a question with a question – “Mike, are you kidding?” …But seriously Mike, in all your verbosity you have not addressed any of the seven items. I’m sorry – but it seems like you’re trying to pull a fast one. Are you familiar with the term “smoke and mirrors”? Here’s Wikipedia’s definition: Smoke and mirrors is a metaphor for a deceptive, fraudulent, or insubstantial explanation or description. The source of the name is based on magician’s illusions, where magicians make objects appear or disappear by extending or retracting mirrors amid a confusing burst of smoke. The expression may have a connotation of virtuosity or cleverness in carrying out such a deception. Note to moderators: I’m sorry for the digression on this thread – and I’ve got a feeling it’s going to get awfully tedious if we continue in this manner. It may be best to move this to the doctrinal forum.

Thanks Ex70's, Ductape, and everyone else...A gun enthusiast thread sounds good...I don't have anything to contribute - but like all the tech talk - always enjoy picking someone's brain. My good friend at work is an avid sportsman [hunting and fishing] and gets into hand loads - I love to get him talking shop.

Great post, Don't Worry – rant on brother!!! I agree – any former TWI-leadership has no business starting their own thing – cuz they still have all the kaka in their system! It reminds me of a long ago newsletter from John Lynn – where he said something like "We've escaped from Egypt and we've got all the gold!" Certain TWI doctrines and mindset reinforce either a predator or prey mentality – but either way the process as a whole creates a controlled environment that facilitates predators. It's sort of along the lines of a canned hunt – where a hunter is guaranteed a kill by the host pre-capturing the animal and releasing it into an area where the hunter can take a shot. It's as easy as shooting fish in a barrel. Predatory mindset: All the women of the kingdom belong to the king. Unto the pure all things are pure. Anything done in the love of God is okay. The integrity of the Word is always at stake [not your integrity]. You can renew your mind so well that something is no longer sin to you. You and God make a majority. Prey mindset: Lock Box. Don't murmur – especially against leadership. The love of God thinketh no evil. Blind Obedience. Questioning leadership may be due to influence by devil spirits and if not kept in check can lead to out-and-out possession. Remember who taught you the Word. If you walk out on this ministry – where else are you going to go?

Great posts all, they've got me thinking about a few things. How God created the cosmos, superstring theories, matter cannot be created or destroyed, and physical versus spiritual bodies…All speculation here – but fun stuff to think about, for sure! God's Power to bind and to loose Ages ago I read a small book – I think it was by a physicist – the book was The Atom Speaks or something like that. From what I remember, he described the incredible amount of energy in an atom of helium. The helium atom has two protons in the nucleus and two electrons around it. Like poles repel – yet the nucleus of helium with two protons stays intact. There is a strong force that is powerful enough to overcome the electrostatic repulsion between these like-charged protons. I remember a vivid description from this book – if we took the two protons and placed them at opposite ends of the earth – they would still exert a repelling force against each other of some 15 pounds [something like that if memory serves me right]. Imagine the amount of force needed to hold these two protons together! Now, we've been talking about just ONE atom here…think about the power to create all matter and energy! It also makes me think of Colossians 1:17 NASB, "He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." I can't even begin to conceive of the amount of power God exerted in Genesis 1:1 creating the heavens and the earth! On the flip side of that – check out II Peter 3:10-13 speaking of the Day of the Lord, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat. One could interpret this as an atomic reaction at a cosmic level – God who bound everything together…now sets it all loose…to re-do it all…verse 13 does mention His promise of making a new heaven and earth…Now some things to think about - - the transformation of people to inhabit this new world. Which brings us to… Something old, something new Like everyone else on this thread – I can see from Scripture that certain things will happen – but cannot speak of how they will happen. I find it intriguing that it seems our natural bodies are somehow linked to our future spiritual bodies. I know scientists say matter cannot be created or destroyed – and really that's only man's viewpoint. I imagine God can do whatever He wants….. And what if…God has this whole thing worked out to such a minute personal detail – that He even re-constitutes our earthly vessels into new bodies. How hard is it for God to alter the molecular structure of something [whether scattered ashes, rotting bones in a grave or living tissue] so that it has totally different properties and capabilities? Maybe this is so obvious to most folks – but this thread really got me thinking our current body has something to do with the future one. I read I Corinthians 15 in that light. I also thought about the obvious – Jesus Christ was raised from the dead…His body wasn't found. He took it with Him…but it was dramatically altered, of course. Dimensions I feel I've rambled on way too long – so I'll keep it brief here. My curiosity about our new bodies has led me to check out superstring theories and the nature of the cosmos. I've got 2 links below where I posted some stuff on this – but for this post I'd like to wrap it up by submitting an idea about the relationship of the physical and spiritual realm [again some of this I addressed in more detail on the links below]. It's possible that the difference between the physical world and the spiritual world is one of dimensions. And perhaps the terms "physical" and "spiritual" may be a little misleading. I think I had a fuzzy idea of the spiritual realm being a wispy world, dreamlike, like a ghost world – nothing of any real substance. But consider how Christ interacted with our world in His new body [again, discussed in the links below]. This superstring theory stuff has me thinking the spiritual realm does not exist in another space or time…not superimposed on our world…maybe wrapped up together with it…a convoluted tapestry of dimensions. At present, we are only aware of three…visualize how dimensions can be hidden by thinking of an 8 ½ inch by 11 inch piece of paper. Looking at it head on – you see its width and height and if there's anything written on it. But if I rotated the paper 90 degrees – all you'd see is the thin edge of the paper. And if I backed away from you – eventually you would not be able to see that thin edge. http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=296926 http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=297316

Sorry to get off topic, Rhino - but Ron and George touched on something I'm interested in: I'm not a hunter [only hunted a few times] - but do enjoy target shooting and learning about ballistics. I have a 30-06 rifle and have wondered about that round George was talking about. I think I've seen them marked as accelerator bullets....Anyway...my question is...are they any good as far as accuracy?..........okay - if I could impose a little further here - changing bullets here - anyone had any experience shooting a glazer safety bullet? They're bird-shot suspended in epoxy. The guy at the gun store told me - they're good for home defense because they won't over-penetrate or ricochet - they'll shatter if they hit something hard. But hitting soft tissue they do a lot of damage...

Mike, when you make statements like this, you come across as someone who is deluded and/or is trying to pull a fast one on folks. Please be honest and upfront in this discussion. You say you're "fixin' to" address the 7 items of my post # 423 – I would just appreciate some honesty on your part…Instead of making another claim that your answers to the 7 items are spread out on this thread – though hidden they're just waiting to be uncovered ala Nicholas Cage in National Treasure…Just speak the truth. If you need more time to retrieve your old research notes – just say so. Or if you think my post is not even worthy of your time, just say so. Or if you care to revise your claims – please do so. Mike, I am sorry to be such a stickler for simple/honest communication. Whenever it's not like that – there's the potential for it to jack with people's heads – I speak from my TWI-experience days…On a personal note [and on topic with this thread]: After leaving TWI - it was a BIG step toward deliverance when I forgave myself for being so gullible.

Good analogy, Oklahoma. The world can be a treacherous place. The connection between mad-cow disease and humans was discovered in Great Britain in the 1990s when several young people died from a new variation of a rare brain disorder. The victims had lived in areas where outbreaks of mad-cow disease in cattle had occurred. The British Government concluded that mad-cow disease was probably the cause of the brain disorder and that the victims contracted the disease probably by eating meat from infected cows…Be wise…stay away from infected meat.

Babble On – the Great Mystery Religion…There were actually two vics…To the general TWI public he was known as the-man-of-god-for-this-day-and-time-and-hour, taught by God Himself! To Corps and Staff he was known as a drunkard, egomaniac, and sexual predator - who would do whatever he wanted to, claiming "unto the pure all things are pure." If ever he was challenged on anything he said or did – he would sidestep the issue by saying "the integrity of the Word is always at stake." The duo vic guys was a great mystery indeed…okay – mostly hypocritical – but somewhat mysterious too. There's another great mystery – but I speak concerning a cult…not a church – a lot of mysterious things happen in cults, ya know…anyway…this is truly mysterious…what makes you think a class and ministry built on lies and hypocrisy - would enable you to separate truth from error?…behold, I show you another mystery – they shall not all remain in La La Land – for some will escape. The Geeks shall rise first and expose vic's folly to the world wide web…Then those who get on-line shall vamoose…Surely Charlton Heston will say "PFAL is made of plagiarism." And many will confess their gullibility and declare "PFAL is in you of a goof." [mysteriously edited by a mysterious editor :ph34r: ]

Mike, YOU are the one who made the following claims: Therefore, YOU should present the research which YOU have implied YOU have already done to back up YOUR claim. Unless, you would like to revise YOUR claims or downgrade them to "unsubstantiated", pending your opportunity to solicit help from other folks – YOU need to address the following six items of my post # 398: And since YOU have made another claim in YOUR post # 408 – I've revised the list to seven issues [your latest addition in post # 408 identified in bold red] – that YOU need to address with the research that YOU imply YOU have already done: 1. Explain how the current translation(s) of I Corinthians 3:17 contradicts the previous verses [verses 5-16] 2. Explain how the current translation(s) of I Corinthians 3:17 contradicts itself 3. Identify the one improperly translated word in I Corinthians 3:17 and 4. Demonstrate the correct method of translating the passage 5. Explain how the correct translation you suggest - changes the tone of the verse from condemning to warm and soothing 6. Explain how I Corinthians 3:17 correctly translated by you, furthers a deeper understanding of Galatians 5 7. Explain the connection to forgiveness in I Corinthians 3: 5-17. I don't understand your reluctance to provide this information. I am merely responding to something you expressed in your post # 386:

I understand your train of thought - and think you're on the right track. Love and peace to you, Kit!

Thank you for your response…Just thought I'd encapsulate your post – I look forward to you showing the following: 1. Explain how the current translation(s) of I Corinthians 3:17 contradicts the previous verses [verses 5-16] 2. Explain how the current translation(s) of I Corinthians 3:17 contradicts itself 3. Identify the one improperly translated word in I Corinthians 3:17 and 4. Demonstrate the correct method of translating the passage 5. Explain how the correct translation you suggest - changes the tone of the verse from condemning to warm and soothing 6. Explain how I Corinthians 3:17 correctly translated by you, furthers a deeper understanding of Galatians 5

I wish you the best, Kit. Thanks for all that you bring to Grease Spot.

Greasy [hope we're on a first name basis by now ], thanks for all you do around here! For your birthday I'd like to give you a cartridge of the finest multipurpose technical grease....uhm...not sure how good the lubricating properties of it are with a word like "adhesives" at the bottom of the picture.

Yes – on numerous occasions and in various settings - below are a few links regarding vp's porn video and moral depravity…I saw it when he showed it at a pajama party with the Family Corps – and TEENAGERS were present! I don't think his moral depravity knew any boundaries…And I would say you're dead on with it being part of an indoctrination process that was he11 bent on sabotaging the moral compass of followers. http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?s=&showtopic=9344&view=findpost&p=220430 http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?s=&showtopic=283&view=findpost&p=45015 http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?s=&showtopic=268&view=findpost&p=26978

That is interesting to bring up the I Corinthians 3 passage in this discussion: I Corinthians 3:5-17 KJV 5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. 8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. 9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. 10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. Hmmmm…silly assumption – that vp can be compared to Paul, Apollos or that an organization known as TWI has anything to do with the temple of God…Personally, I think that's laughable…The only "foundation" vp laid was the foundational class PFAL – formed by plagiarism [stealing and lying on a massive scale] and twisting Scripture – and building on that foundation more lies, hypocrisy and immorality by the way he modeled the "Christian" lifestyle. [by the way, Jesus Christ was only a window dressing mentioned early in the class – to lend it the appearance of being Christ-centered.] You know, verse 17 can work the other way too, in regards to vp and the harm he's done to the true church [the invisible church – the body of Christ]. The word "defile" and "destroy" in the KJV are the same Greek word phtheiro [Strong's # 5351]; according to An Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words by W.E. Vine, Merrill Unger & William White, page 234, phtheiro means to "…destroy by means of corrupting, and so bringing into a worse state…with the significance of destroying, it is used of marring a local church by leading it away from the condition of holiness of life and purity of doctrine…I Corinthians 3:17…" And along those lines, vp's practice of showing his favorite porn video and quoting "unto the pure all things are pure" to justify his sexual immorality come to mind…Perhaps all the crap leaking out of the Lock Boxes now – is God's way of ruining his "man-of-god" persona. He brought it on himself…Check out verse 17 in another translation: I Corinthians 3:17 Holman Christian Standard Bible If anyone ruins God's sanctuary, God will ruin him; for God's sanctuary is holy, and that is what you are. [edited for those who feel safe with TWI or PFAL :) ]

Geez, this could really get complicated if the sexotomist was also an annihilationist with a gambling problem – with the stakes set at double or nothing, we'll either find a twelvefold being or a void at Caesar's Palace.

That's a great point, Dooj. Yesterday Tonto said the same thing while we were discussing this thread: people can quote Scripture to prove any point. It reminds me of discussions about Jesus being God/not God…Only here, it's not an intellectual debate over inferences from certain Scripture – but over practical application – and more precisely, what specific Scripture applies to a situation. The tendency of some folks on a particular bandwagon is to think one verse fits all situations. But even Ecclesiastes 3 says there's an appropriate time for everything. When do we apply the prescription for church discipline in Matthew 18:15-17? And when is the repeated forgiveness of Matthew 18:21, 22 applicable?.....It's funny – these passages aren't "miles of Scripture" apart – but in the same chapter!...Perhaps the challenge is not to settle for pat answers or assume we know all the details that need to be known – it takes personal involvement in either case – as can be seen in both these passages.

I Thessalonians 5:23 may also be understood as an emphasis on the wholeness of human nature – noting how the sanctification process touches every dimension of life…I suppose we could have even more components than a trichotomist's model. By adding the heart, soul, and mind of Matthew 22:37 with which we're to love God – to the strength in Mark 12:30's commandment of loving God – and assuming body and spirit are a given – we come up with a six-fold model of man. I'm of the opinion that Paul had a dichotomist's view of man from passages like Romans 8:10; I Corinthians 2:11; 5:3-5; 7:34; II Corinthians 7:1; Colossians 2:5. There's an interesting use of soul and spirit in the gospels. Mark 10:45 says Jesus gave His life [psuche – soul] as a ransom; in John 19:30 He gave up His spirit [pneuma]. It's possible the terms may sometimes be used interchangeably. I dunno…here we are fallen creatures trying to understand our own nature. In a discussion on the nature of man, Norman Geisler refers to Karl Barth on the issue: "…In these circumstances how can we possibly reach a doctrine of man in the sense of a doctrine of his creaturely essence, of his human nature as such? For what we recognize to be human nature is nothing other than the disgrace which covers his nature; his inhumanity, perversion and corruption…But if we know man only in the corruption and distortion of his being, how can we begin to answer the question about his creaturely nature?" From Systematic Theology, by Norman Geisler, Volume 3, page 75. …anyway – I'm with you – we see through a glass darkly. love & peace

Interesting thread…I used to believe in a threefold composition of man [body, soul & spirit – a trichotomist view] – but now lean toward a twofold model [body & soul – a dichotomist view], in keeping with the Hebrew thought of seeing the unity of God's creation. Genesis 2:7 God formed man of the dust of the ground [material] and gave him the breath of life [immaterial] - man became a living soul. When it comes to a discussion of death - rather than dissect man into parts for analysis – I think a more intriguing line of questioning would be to look at the relationship between body and soul. It seems from Scripture that body and soul were designed in unity – or else murder would not be wrong: Genesis 9:6 NASB Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man. This warning came after the fall of man – which implies that fallen man still bears the image of God. ~~ Can the soul exist separately? From the following Scripture – it appears so – though it also may be inferred that it is not a permanent condition: Psalm 16:10 NASB For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay. Matthew 10:28 NASB Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. John 5:25-29 NASB 25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. I Corinthians 15:42-45 NASB 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL " The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. II Corinthians 5:1-9 NASB 1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, 3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. 4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. 6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight-- 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him. Revelation 6:9-11 NASB 9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also. Revelation 20:4-6 NASB 4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. ~~ Destruction versus Annihilation This thread got me looking at a number of things. I no longer hold to the annihilationist viewpoint. An interesting study is the word for "destroy" in the above passage Matthew 10:28. According to Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old & New Testament Words, William Mounce general editor, page 423, 424 is defined under the word "lose" and is from the Greek word apollymi [strong's # 622], occurs 90 times and means "to destroy, perish, lose"; in some passages it denotes the idea of "destroying" or "ruining" something; (1. a) it can refer to physical destruction in the sense of killing [Matthew 2:13; 12:14; Mark 3:6; 9:22; 12:9]; it can also signify the destruction meted out in divine judgment [James 4:12; Jude 5], which according to Matthew 10:28 is realized in hell. (1. b) To experience destruction, to perish. Objects can perish [Matthew 9:17; mark 2:22; Luke 5:37], as well as people. The disciples used this word when they thought they would drown, Lord save us, we are perishing [Matthew 8:25; Mark 4:38; Luke 8:24]. It can also signify the destruction meted out in divine judgment [John 3:16; 17:12]. (2) A second meaning is to fail to obtain what one expects or anticipates, "to lose" [Matthew 10:42; cf. Mark 9:41; II John 8]. (3) Finally, apollymi can mean "to lose" something that one already has or to be separated from a normal connection [Matthew 5:29; 10:39; cf. 16:25; Mark 8:35; Luke 9:24; 15:8; 17:33; John 12:25]. End of referencing Mounce's ~~ From Mounce's work I think death and destruction in Scripture [as related to our topic] are defined as: Death - a separation from a normal connection [separation of body and soul], a body's loss of the life-force. Destruction – a consequence of divine judgment and implies something is ruined, perhaps defaced, weakened, impaired, or rendered useless. According to The Oxford American Writer's Thesaurus, compiled by Christine Lindberg, on page 230, discussing the synonyms for destroy – says of annihilate that it is the most extreme word in the group and literally means to reduce to nothingness…Which I take to mean something is no longer in existence. Going by the above passages that show the existence of the soul after death and the eventual re-fitting of all souls with the appropriate body for heaven or hell, I would say that the concept of the annihilation of anyone's existence is foreign to Scripture. Soul Sleep I thought this was interesting. From The Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, Walter Elwell, editor, pages 1037, 1038: "Soul sleep. Psychopannychy, the doctrine that the soul sleeps between death and destruction. It has been held sporadically in the church. It is not a heresy in the narrower sense, due to the paucity of Scripture teaching on the intermediate state, but it may be called a doctrinal aberration… …The case for soul sleep rests principally on these considerations: (1) Human existence demands the unity of soul and body. If the body ceases to function, so must the soul. (2) The use of the term "sleep" in Scripture for death is alleged to point to the cessation of consciousness. (3) A state of consciousness between death and resurrection, characterized by bliss or woe, unwarrantably anticipates the judgment of the last day, when the basis for these experiences is provided. On the contrary view, while the normal state of man is admittedly a union of soul and body, the possibility of disembodied conscious existence is firmly held, both on the analogy of God's existence as pure spirit [man being made in his image] and on the basis of such passages as Hebrews 12:23 and Revelation 6:9-11… …Continuing consciousness after death seems to be necessary [rather than an accidental] element in Jesus' account of the rich man and Lazarus, and also in our Lord's promise to the dying thief. The clearest and strongest passages however, are in Paul's writings [Philippians 1:23; II Corinthians 5:8]…" End of Excerpts ~~ Sorry for the long post…I should have contributed earlier – I've been extremely busy at work and haven't had enough time to condense a few of my thoughts to several shorter posts.

Do you consider smelly feet as a couple of lost soles?

Actually, I'm of the opinion that we are all sinners [don't know if that says much for anyone being the highest form of life ] – and for those who are Christian, I think it's pretty clear in the Bible that the standard for morality has already been determined by God: I Corinthians 5:9-13 NASB 9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. 11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES. It goes back to what I was saying earlier in post # 277 – about the moral intent of the law, revealed in the words of Jesus and Paul - you shall love your neighbor as yourself…Jesus also summed up the moral intent of Scripture a little differently in: Matthew 7:12 NASB In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets. Known as the Golden Rule, it seems to have been around for a real long time! I think a few ancient Greek philosophers like Pythagoras and Epictetus are attributed with some form of it – besides showing up in other ancient civilizations. From my Christian viewpoint – I tend to think for this simple all encompassing moral code to make various appearances like that – it may be by design of our Creator – building into our conscience, a moral template so to speak. Which may be inferred from Romans 2: Romans 2:14, 15 NASB 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

You are correct, sir.

What do "political liberals" have to do with "a moral Jesus stripped of grace"? You're not making sense. Grease Spot is not a church – nor is it even a representative cross-section of today's churches – it is not a religious website. What is evident from many Grease Spot discussions, besides this one, is that a lot of folks [and it doesn't matter WHAT their belief systems are] address the blatant lies and hypocrisy of vpw – a legacy that he bequeathed to TWI. Being the proficient plagiarist that he was – made him a THIEF and LIAR par excellence! Well, I guess he wasn't one for setting high ethical standards – but hey, all his "research" and audible coaching from God sure helped sales. Keep that money rolling in, folks – or God won't even spit in your direction. It appears discussions of ethics and church matters were necessary in Paul's day: II Corinthians 2:17 NASB For we are not like many, peddling the word of God, but as from sincerity, but as from God, we speak in Christ in the sight of God. vp's ministry was based on STEALING and LYING. TWI and the offshoots uphold those nefarious principles in their silence over vp's ways. If they even had a shred of integrity – they'd denounce vp the pirate! …And another thing – vp always pitted grace against law. But the law he had in mind was the moral law. Grace was re-defined as God cutting you a lot of slack or that you're free to do whatever you want. I was reading a theological dictionary on "grace" last night – basically defining it as divine help in time of need…So I guess if someone has a need to lie or steal – they can ask for divine help to be the best thief or liar. What vp promoted was a self-centered grace stripped of a moral Jesus. His brand of hyper-dispensationalism, turned followers' eyes toward his skewed rendition of grace in the epistles and ignored the overt moral demands of Jesus in the gospels. But even in the epistles we find Paul reiterating Jesus' words on the moral intent of the law: Galatians 5:13, 14 NASB 13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."