T-Bone

Yeah Mike - I stand corrected - I should have said the combative mode.

Mike, I’m enjoying our discussion here too…I had a meltdown…or realization…or something on a thread awhile back [maybe getting a good glimpse of my ugly side ] – and it sort of got me looking at folks here a little differently – but in a good sense…And please don’t take offense to this – but what you’ve been saying in these posts is a lot easier for me to process than when you’re in your PFAL mode. As I’m sure I can be very abrasive when I’m in my anti-PFAL mode.

The first rule of Podcast is, you do not talk about Podcast. sorry Paw - I couldn't resist.

Once again Mike, thanks for opening your heart. I don't know about anyone else – but sometimes I get bored when discussions drag on in a combative manner…Thought I'd just try a decaffeinated approach for a change… A few things you said brought up some thoughts of my past. I was brought up in the Roman Catholic Church and had the same feeling you mentioned of following Christ from a distance. My church was mostly about ceremonies, ritual, and Latin. It didn't engage the intellect or emotions. The early part of my involvement with TWI was in a stark contrast to that church. Our Twig was just a bunch of kids cracking open the Bibles, excited about life and enjoying each other's company. I disagree with a lot of PFAL stuff now – but back then – at least it got me to open the Bible. It's been said cults are the unpaid bills of the church – and to that, I agree! It's too bad that I fell in step with the flow of TWI – because looking back I can see the influence and mindset of an organization slowly overshadowing mind and emotions...like a descending cloud of gloom...bondage...boredom. And to be honest – I still felt like I was following Christ from a distance. vp's hyper-dispensational interpretation of the Bible had me looking at the gospels as irrelevant. I remember right after taking PFAL I began reading the Bible like crazy – all the way through – repeatedly. And I'd just go nuts in the gospels – relishing every word and deed of my Lord…I also remember the typical response of older grads to a lot of my questions about things I had read. They'd encourage me to read the church epistles, review the collaterals, and sit through the next PFAL class. Gee whiz – I think the most efficient way to anesthetize a brain is through boredom! Anyway, since leaving behind TWI and their straitjacketing mindset, I have experienced a much more rewarding relationship with Jesus Christ – engaging intellect and emotions. As to my letting an organization's doctrine, practice, or leaders get in the way of my relationship with the Lord – I forgive myself – and have vowed never to let that happen again! Love and peace, T-Bone

Mike, I really appreciate your being so open on this thread. I have been enjoying our discussion for a number of reasons – one of which is simply getting a better understanding of my own TWI experience. Another is that I get into exploring the belief systems of others. I've listed a few verses and I'm interested in your response to some things at the end of my post: Matthew 16:6-12 KJV 6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. 7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread. 8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread? 9 Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up? 10 Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up? 11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees? 12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. Luke 12:1 KJV 1 In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. II Corinthians 11:13-15 KJV 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. Galatians 1:6-9 KJV 6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. In regards to the previously listed verses – I would like to pose a few things for discussion. Jesus warned of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees – which was a theological system that bred hypocrisy. I tend to think vp's doctrine would fall into the same category – a belief system with a primary concern for appearances rather than matters of the heart. Of course, that's just my opinion. I'm interested in your thoughts on that. In regards to Paul's warning of counterfeits – and even your own mentioning of the devil's activity – I was wondering if you could mention specific reasons why you think vp was a genuine minister of God. I was intrigued by your reference to religious folks stuck in the 4 gospel time administration [which, I guess, you also lump me in that category]. vp's teachings focused more on showing the application of PFAL principles rather than developing a relationship with Jesus Christ. Has Paul's warning of some who pervert the gospel of Christ ever been a concern of yours in the struggles you mentioned in a previous post? In other words - did you ever think vp perverted the gospel of Christ? Love and peace, T-Bone

I assure you ever since I left TWI, the deity of Jesus Christ has been one of my favorite studies – one of which I'm very passionate about. One that I've shared here often as can be seen in the following posts: Jesus Christ, 275 Reasons Why I think He's a Man thread Post # 9 http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?s=&showtopic=13725&view=findpost&p=320521 Post # 11 http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?s=&showtopic=13725&view=findpost&p=321148 Post # 14 http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=321317 As far as the uniqueness of Israel's one God, I refer you to some of these posts: Honest Discussion of the Trinity thread Post # 173 http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?s=&showtopic=12971&view=findpost&p=302302 Post # 176 http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?s=&showtopic=12971&view=findpost&p=302401 Post # 187 http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?s=&showtopic=12971&view=findpost&p=302932 I'm sorry but I still find your thought process faulty. There's a lot of assumptions – like believing vp got revelation to plagiarize and TWI editors got revelation working on his stuff. I tend to think with as much credence as you give vp - that a cloning process has happened to you a long time ago. But thank you for elaborating on stuff – it's not really an update for me – I'm very familiar with your work.

[putting foot in door to prevent closing] ..."wait, wait – did I mention the gilded turd charms we're giving out at the Public Ex?"

I'm a study bug and do think manuscript research is important. But since I've left TWI, I've rejected vp's notion that we don't have the Word of God anymore – or the only way to find it is through vp's "research". I believe God is the author and since He is a being of infinite resources, He had no problem overseeing the transmission of His message. Perhaps a more challenging task to consider [from a human perspective anyway] would be how God worked out all the details to ensure every prophecy, every detail came together for Jesus Christ to accomplish man's salvation. Today, we certainly do have so many resources for biblical studies – besides the printed Bible! It's interesting to think about believers in Bible times getting by with just someone reading from a scroll [a copy of a copy of a copy, no doubt]. I wonder how much manuscript research Jesus did. What has been impacted by manuscript research? I mean – does it change the nuts and bolts of Christianity - things like prayer, worship, love, or what we think of Jesus Christ? This is sort of an open question – because simply reading the Bible thoughtfully, analytically, prayerfully is basic to research – and can indeed have a profound influence on our beliefs. I mentioned Jesus Christ in the above, after reading of your process. I too went through a crisis of faith over the identity of my Lord – and came to a different conclusion. I discovered vp's gross mishandling of John 1:1 & 2 in his studies of Who is the Word [noting especially his ineptness with the Greek word pros] by studying the context and Greek words of John 1 for myself - and I returned to a belief in the deity of Christ. This [vp's Who is the Word] was actually one of the first things that tipped me off to his shoddy research skills and penchant for making up definitions. vp's shoddy intellectual standards become "traditional blinders" for PFAL grads. Anyway…The reason I brought that up was not to start another Jesus is God/not God debate but as a challenge to your process. It seems you place more faith in vp than in God, that you have more trust in vp's thought process than your own…It's kind of weird, remembering how we all thought alike while in TWI. We were all clones of vp's mindset. What I've seen at Grease Spot is that as folks think outside the PFAL theological box, they tend to experience some shift in doctrinal beliefs. You can always spot them by their green bumper sticker "Shift Happens."

Watered Garden - that just made my day! Ya know...we may have misunderstood him...maybe what he actually said was "When it comes to the turd, I have no friends.".....That makes a lot more sense now...especially sense of smell. [edited because I'm on a roll now.......uhm....er....roll of TP that is - ]

Interesting…vp re-defines plagiarism as assembling bits and pieces from other people's work to make them "fit". Funny, how he claims he learned wherever he could and sorted out what was right with Scripture – but he also claimed God taught him the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century. Obviously vp had a long suit in lying – and through the wonders of make-believing and salesmanship he hides the truth in plain sight. Oh, he's got nothing to hide – puts the books he plagiarized in TWI's bookstore, makes reference to them in a false humility how he learned wherever he could – but belittles them all by insinuating only he could make it all fit together. But so much for how vp hoodwinked folks. Honest…sane folks call that plagiarism. vp also lied about other things in Whiteside's book. Like on page 175 where he claimed he took everything he could from the Moody Correspondence School. In my post # 500 of The Way: Living in Wonderland thread I posted a letter from Moody Correspondence School that states otherwise: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=213920 vp was a boldfaced liar. No doubt about it. His toxic doctrine/mindset has poisoned thousands for sure – who follow in the footsteps of the imaginary alchemist of theology.

Your assumption is that PFAL doctrine is nothing more than an assemblage of doctrines from others. But there's a self-deceptive aspect of plagiarism to think about also. Since it was not by his own intellectual efforts – he lacked the discipline, the skills, the experience and wisdom to handle the material properly. It's like letting a salesman for a chemical manufacturing company go in the lab, play chemist and see what neat stuff he can concoct. And another thing – besides the fact that some of the doctrines he plagiarized are questionable as to being doctrinally sound and biblically accurate – the problem is compounded by vp's personal agenda – which really puts the toxic spin on the practical consequence of his doctrines. How he loved to throw around that verse unto the pure all things are pure or say stuff like anything done in the love of God is okay – which really was just a license to sin. The poison of vpw's doctrine delivers a numbing toxin to the conscience and intellect. The TWI mindset does a good job of sabotaging the moral compass; I talked about the cheap grace so cherished and promoted by vp in my post # 638 – it's nothing more than a sedative to the conscience. http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=399640 vp's cheap grace corrupted his conscience to the point that he didn't see the need to seek the forgiveness of those he hurt – he figured he already had the blank check of God's forgiveness. PFAL is not brain-friendly. I remember a discussion with one poster over vp's you can't go beyond what you're taught. I said, if that were true how would people invent things or improve technology. He replied – that these things come by revelation. Oh yeah – I remember that old Sunday Night Teaching Tape – Carnal versus Spiritual. Perhaps the most telltale sign of the mind-numbing poison in PFAL is when people can't separate Scripture from PFAL. Had a recent discussion about this on another thread [my post # 593 on How About Some Responses Like Chapter and Verse] http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=399035 You know…folks really should have thought more about vp saying he'd have failed a sanity test. That might have been one of the rare times when he actually spoke the truth.

Yeah, Dooj – you bring up a good point. Even with a cursory reading of I Corinthians 3 – I notice some distinctions between what's addressed in verses 11-15 and verses 16 & 17. Verses 11-15 talks about every man's work that builds on a foundation [Jesus Christ] – which is the analogy of a work in progress, and the man's choice of building materials, and the consequences of his choice of building materials [loss or reward, commensurate with the appropriateness of the building materials]. Verses 16 & 17 speaks of a temple [an existing structure], defiling the temple, and the consequences of defiling it – which are more serious than those of verses 11-15 because they directly impact the person [the person himself being "defiled, corrupted, destroyed, ruined" by God!] – whereas the worst case scenario of poor choice of building materials is loss of reward – only the person's inferior materials are destroyed. Also, I'm inclined to think the materials in question of the earlier verses are concerned with their effect on the individual's quality of life in the future - but the latter verses [on defilement] speak to a larger concern - when what someone does is harmful to everyone in the church. It seems verses 11-15 addresses the quality of workmanship and making wise choices of what we build upon and what we build with. Verses 16 & 17 hit me as what God thinks about those who vandalize His church. I think it would be an interesting study to look into Old Testament stuff on the design of the Temple, what the ceremonial laws said about defilement, and accounts of people defiling the Temple like: II Chronicles 36:14, "Furthermore, all the leaders of the priests and the people became more and more unfaithful, following all the detestable practices of the nations and defiling the temple of the LORD, which he had consecrated in Jerusalem." And the flip flop of defilement - Josiah's cleaning of the Temple in II Kings 23:4-6 KJV 4 And the king commanded Hilkiah the high priest, and the priests of the second order, and the keepers of the door, to bring forth out of the temple of the LORD all the vessels that were made for Baal, and for the grove, and for all the host of heaven: and he burned them without Jerusalem in the fields of Kidron, and carried the ashes of them unto Bethel. 5 And he put down the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places round about Jerusalem; them also that burned incense unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of heaven. 6 And he brought out the grove from the house of the LORD, without Jerusalem, unto the brook Kidron, and burned it at the brook Kidron, and stamped it small to powder, and cast the powder thereof upon the graves of the children of the people.

Obviously you didn’t write The Book – what you’ve done here is re-write The Book…I Corinthians 3:17 in KJV plainly SAYS, “If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.” However, YOU stated “There it says that God will destroy YOU if you don’t line up with me in this church.” Is that your response to the fourth request in my post # 423 ? I don’t think that’s the CORRECT method for translation work…then again, it may be according to your PFAL standards…You may want to start from the beginning of my list – and with logic and documentation argue your case, point by point – rather than this way which tends to ruin your credibility.

Here's to folks who scam free beer from friends!

Thanks for that clip, Roy. I like Dave Hunt. One of the most significant books I had read right after after leaving TWI was his Beyond Seduction: A return to Biblical Christianity. A lot of the points in his book really hit home for me. http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000IO8YUQ/ref=sr_1_olp_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204546779&sr=1-5

Oh yeah, you're right! Another round for everybody - this one is for Excathedra!!!!

Dot, our thoughts and prayers are with you. Love Tonto and T-Bone

That's probably because you haven't really covered anything related to my questions in post # 423. Mike, I'm not buying your absent-minded professor shtick. It reminds me of the same antics you've pulled on the PFAL threads. This is what I was referring to in my post # 613 about smoke and mirrors: Mike, why don't you just handle my questions ONE at a time - in a simple and straight forward manner. See my example below, just answer ONE of my questions in post # 423 and respond in a different color below that [in this example YOUR response is indicated in bold blue]: After you state your case, go on to the next item.

Can't we still wish you a happy birthday anyway - just so we can commence with the toasting? ...Here's to you, Rhino - love Tonto & T-Bone

The following verses are from The New Knoxville Gnostics Study Bible, The Skewed Life Translation: Exodus 20: 14 Thou shalt not commit alleged adultery. Matthew 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the alleged leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the alleged way, the alleged truth, and the alleged life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me [allegedly]. I Corinthians 5:1 It is commonly alleged that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as alleged among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

Happy birthday Jardinero ! love Tonto & T-Bone

Ah ha – we thought that was you! Tonto and I are on the fast moving train to your right [the T & T Express]. Always good to hear from you – see ya at the next junction!

Just wondering if these two posts were related...I don't think a CONCEALED carry permit is gonna cut it for that monster. [by the way - what the heck is that thing?] ...On a serious note - I've never had a concealed carry permit but think about getting one once in awhile...Sometimes I wonder if an OPEN CARRY law would be more of a crime deterrent. A bad guy walking into a convenience store and seeing four or five customers with pistols in plain sight might have second thoughts about knocking off that place.

Yeah Waysider – it's all about whitewashing…i.e. trying to preserve that man-o-god persona…Maybe some folks need to pick up this handy little item: Use Tarn-X ! Instantly tarnish is gone from sterling silver, silver plate, platinum, copper, gold, and idols!

vp was big on "assurance" via cheap grace…The TWI mindset sedated the conscience, which not only gave followers a false sense of security – but also increased the likelihood of self-deception…Whereas, Scripture has much to say about how Christians ought to be routinely reflective of their ways - examine themselves if they be in the faith [iI Corinthians 13:5] comes to mind, right off the bat, along with the verses in I John that challenge us to be honest [like I John 1:6 – if we claim we have fellowship with Him but walk in darkness, we lie and do not walk in truth; verse 10, if we claim we have not sinned we make Him a liar]. It seems to me now, that the only reason vp ever spoke about the work of Jesus Christ, emphasizing anything we did was of little consequence - was so folks wouldn't see how hypocritical he was. vp's idea of "grace" was a license to do whatever he wanted. Dietrich Bonhoefer's definition of cheap grace – which seems very appropriate for this thread right about now: "Cheap grace," writes Bonhoefer, "means the justification of sin without the justification of the sinner. Grace alone does everything, they say, and so everything can remain as it was before....Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, communion without confession, absolution without personal confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate." [from http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2638 ]