Twinky

Welcome, PatAnswer! You might (since you've been a lurker for a while) have seen other threads on critical thinking. Many of us here feel as you do. It's very liberating to be able to use your God-given brain for ... thinking!! Think on, and expect some suprises.

I have a genuine degree in a very difficult and challenging subject that requires a lot of careful thinking. Plus further professional training, on top of that, and a sort of professional apprenticeship for two years (so an intense six years training) in highly respectable profession. I come to TWI. They think they have a feather in the cap for this smartie. Trouble is, a degree teaches you to think. Think of good ways to do things. Ask questions like, Why? When you see something that you don't understand or which doesn't seem logical - you ask - "Why? Not to be argumentative, but to understand better. And thinking is not what was encouraged in TWI. So many times I got: You are leaning to your own understanding. You are not meek to the Word. You do not follow instructions. You do not submit. They made me feel - ashamed (!) for having studied, qualified, got my professional stuff under my belt. Ashamed that I could think things through - but it didn't agree with some of what they taught. Ashamed of the brain that God has given me. Ashamed of the uniqueness that God has given me. Ashamed of wanting to help people. Because what I qualified in could really help people in the here and now. And from that, those people could have been led into dealing with their spiritual needs. I trained in that profession because I wanted to help people - not to make megabucks. They stole that. They stole my critical thinking ability. They stole my self-confidence. And it was all because of jealousy. Jealous that worldly skills could do something that their bullying self-aggrandising "training" could not achieve. Thank God that he can make a "plan B" in our lives, to try to get us back to where He wanted us in the first place. Or some other place that we can carry out the works that He has before ordained that we should do.

Haven't had too much attrition among age groups similar to my age - but older and much older ones...and younger ones... Most posters here are in the 50-59 age group. What, did that generation come out of the womb with some special dose of gullibility?

Yep, we Brits are glad to be free of our wayward child...! (tongue in cheek) Hope you guys all have a good day of family and community fun. I remember flying into Denver to stay with some believers - arrived early evening of 4 July - nobody was home - everyone was BBQing in the park! And bless 'em, these people still made space for me, a stranger. I went to the American Museum in my city today. A free "open day." Yesterday they had events, re-enactments, bands, heaps going on. A real party. Okay. Barbecue on!!

A different topic, Kit. Abortion. Perhaps a painful one, too, for some people here. Soulie: not a nice couple. Druggies...how to deal with them...that's another topic, too. So much interweaving on crime and punishment. A quick end to things is good. Whatever that end is. If the woman Melinda had had treatment for her addiction to prescription drugs, none of that crime incident would have happened. Six lives needlessly damaged, snuffed out. Not to mention the families of each of those six. Her choice to seek proper treatment, though.

Heer in the UK the trial has just concluded with the conviction of an ugly male who preyed on young girls. He was already serving life for murder of some other girls; yesterday he was convicted of murdering Millie Dowler, a young teenager (13 years old) who disappeared without trace and her remains were found 6 months later. It seems that the murderer has a penchant for young teenage girls (apparently known as hebephilia, which is nothing to do with liking Hebes, rather nice plants). Joking aside, this man doesn't have a handle on reality, treats others with utter disdain, and has preyed on many young women, murdering some. The day before he snatched Millie, he tried to snatch another young teenager but luckily for her, she managed to get away. The evidence regarding Millie is circumstantial, but incontrovertibly against him. He now has another whole-life tariff. He will never be released. And that's very good for all young teenage girls. It's good for society, that he is forever locked away. Is it good for him? He still denies it. Should he be executed? We don't have capital punishment in the UK, so it's not an option. Right now, there aren't many people who would be sad if he were dead. As a kiddy-fiddler in prison, he might not last long anyway. Those men are kept in a separate prison or at least separate wing of a prison, for their own safety. Huh. Levi Bellfield - serial predator Millie Dowler - teenage victim

It's a good point, Soulie and Waysider, but not for this thread. It's been discussed before and maybe you could resurrect an older thread. The idea of the "God of the OT" and the "God of the NT" being "different" is explained by other churches well enough without Way theology. Now back to the regularly scheduled program, mstar, I agree with you. That nasty legalistic b@$tard Saul wouldn't be everyone's favorite guest knocking on the door. When you think about his past, the people he had hauled off to prison, tortured and had executed...and then he says, there is NO CONDEMNATION to those in Christ Jesus...what guilt must he have overcome? And the people he worked with in the years immediately after his conversion - what forgiveness they must have had! Ananias and his fellowship in Damascus - who themselves rescued Saul/Paul from people who would have killed him! - Barnabas who protected him and introduced him to Christians in Jerusalem...these first Christians who had quite probably had friends and relatives arrested by Saul were the very ones who protected him later. Paul was legally authorized, though, on his rampages. He had letters of authority to seize these "heretics." Does that make a difference? We don't hold it against a public executioner when he executed a convicted criminal. Maybe our attitudes to capital punishment reflect our own views on forgiveness?

Yes, soulie, but there are a lot of other records where execution was the penalty...and was never carried out. That one seems more of an aberration than the norm. I don't seek to explain it. mstar, yes, and the capital punishment that could have been meted out to the woman caught in adultery...what did the One righteous one do? Didn't throw the stone...showed compassion and forgiveness. Therefore we have to assume that is what God wants too. He does not seek people's deaths but rather their change of heart. The OT is full of that...God just wanting people to change their minds and return to him, no matter how bad they had been. People as a nation, and people as individuals. He seeks their return in heart to him. If someone is executed...they have absolutely no possibility of repenting, returning in heart to God. No possibility of ever reflecting on what they've done (no matter how heinous). There are all manner of people alive today who have led bad lifestyles - and repented. Nicky Cruz, for example, a notorious gang leader, violent in the extreme - now leads a huge Christian outreach ministry...because one man, David Wilkerson, was prepared to love him as God loves him. David Wilkerson Nicky Cruz Cruz very carefully doesn't confess to murder in his autobiography...but read his lifestyle...his violence was extreme. He was the kind of man you really would like to lock up and throw away the key forever - if you didn't fry him or hang him or shoot lethal drugs into his arm. Other men have also been converted in prison and had prison ministries that have led others to God.

True too, but what then is to stop a convict, then, from pursuing the ambition to be the baddest of the bad? Even incarcerated criminals deserve protection from the baddest of the bad.Was it "better" for those convicted at the Nuremburg war trials to be executed straight away, or for the last survivor, Hess, to be imprisoned until he died - aged 93 - in Spandau prison? There must be information about this: what are crime rates compared by state, in the US? In those states where capital punishment is permitted, is there a higher or lower level of violent crime? (In other words, does capital punishment have a deterrent effect?) Is the existence of capital punishment a failure of the society in which it sits?

Someone who didn't fake it till she made it. All interesting, but the bit that I was thinking of in connection with this thread starts about 3/4 the way down the article: Corrie on Funding her work

True, there are apparent instructions for genocide...but was it always carried out? eg 1 Sam15:3 Amalekites were to be "totally destroyed" - and it appears they were all except for kind Agag - but not too long later, in chapter 30 there were enough Amalekites to raze Ziklag and carry off the inhabitants. It's also clear that although the tribes were to clear the Promised Land of previous inhabitants - that never happened and there are dire warnings about intermarriage and settling down with the inhabitants. Thje punishment for adultery was death by stoning...was King David or Bathsheba stoned? No, and their union was blessed. And that's despite David ordering the cover-up murder of the cuckolded husband. Lots of behaviour in God's eyes is "worthy of death" - does that mean that sentence was carried out? Only rarely, it seems. "Worthy of death" and actual execution are quite different. That's where God's grace and mercy come in. Again, Saul/St Paul before his conversion was a horrible man who dragged people off for torture for heresy, and execution. Yet through his evil religiously-motivated acts, the new converts were scattered and God worked through that for good, spreading the gospel over all the Mediterranean area. I've just finished reading The Hiding Place - Corrie Ten Boom's story. It's well reported that she was able to forgive a concentration camp guard who had abused her and her sister. Corrie meets the SS guard During her imprisonment and after her release she continued to pray and work for these very abusers, to effect their restoration and reconciliation. I used to think that murderers and such like really ought to be executed. TWI really didn't help soften such a hard attitude. In recent years I have mellowed markedly and I really don't know what an appropriate punishment is. So many things go into the mix that makes someone who they are and who they become...and only some of those things are that person's choice or "fault."

Johniam on the Zachary Brodeau thread said this: This is an interesting topic and perhaps merits some discussion time here. Some people have been involved in prison visiting and may have useful points of view. Others may have been victims of heinous crimes and might have a different point of view. Do you think there is a case for capital punishment - sometimes? never? always in some circumstances? I put up a poll...but only to get people thinking. What sort of crimes might merit that - if you agree it ought to happen? And how does that fit with God's grace towards all?

Teaching...part of Way jargon. The Oxford Dictionary defines teaching as: and for the avoidance of doubt, "mass noun" is: Teachers teach...a lesson or lessons ...not a teaching, or teachings. A music lesson. A French lesson. Driving lessons. A collection of works by a teacher might conceivably be his "teachings." So in fact...that was a fine lesson that JAL taught not...a fine teaching that JAL taught But of course if they used normal language it would reduce the mystique. Like instead of saying a "teaching" they called it a "sermon" (isn't that what the main talking part of a church service is called, hmm?) - or some church services might call it a "message" or a "talk" - but I've never heard any other denomination call that part of a service - a "teaching." In churchy things, "lesson" is reserved for the Bible reading (which might nowadays simply be called the "reading"). But hey, when has TWI and its derivatives really cared for correct English (or any other language) if it could cloak itself in special words and special understandings... Teacher, teach thyself...

Must be something in the Colorado water. I was struck by the resemblance between Hirschfeld's get-rich-quick scheme and this one reported by johnj on his anti-Way website: (Click here:) "Ex-Way Leader Convicted of Crimes Committed While in TWI" -- Articles from the Denver Post on Rick Panyard's adultery and conviction on fraud-related crimes. Haven't seen accusations of Hirschfeld having a string of women...but the apple doesn't fall far from the tree...

umm...Waysider, why're you asking? Ya need to ask the Cafe waiter for a new menu? You having a relapse? And what's with this new avatar, Moon Pie? Or is paste what's in Moon Pies???

It's a sort of Slumdog Millionnaire story, isn't it? He's clearly bright, resourceful, and adaptable. Be grateful for the education that was made freely available to you. What could a young man like that have achieved, with a decent education? Hope he gets the opportunity now of both a good education, and of enlarging his vocal talent.

You asked about this, Kit. And you're right - so close but so different, individual.Both are considered Celtic in origin - Celts being a sort of tribal group that got pushed (or migrated voluntarily) westward until they reached the western edges of Europe. Then later tribes have stranded the Celts at the extremes of western Europe, into a few remaining areas comprising (mostly highland) Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Cornwall (extreme SW of England) and Brittany (extreme NW of France). All of the western seaboard of Europe has since time (or at least boats) began been subject to invasion and counter-invasion from different tribal groups. Scotland was invaded from Scandinavia (think, Vikings); England - the very name is derived from Anglo-Saxon - Angles and Saxons being from different areas of what is now Germany; and so on. The Celtic tribes gradually got pushed west until there was no further to go. Remnant cultures have remained and Gaelic (think Gaul, now France) is still spoken in France, Ireland and Scotland. Welsh is a variant Celtic language spoken in Wales. There has been a strong nationalistic tendency there and it is difficult to progress in council/administrative or teaching type professions unless one is bilingual in Welsh and English. Road signs are bilingual. Scotland has not got quite that radical - yet. Ireland has been divided on religious grounds but southern Ireland (Eire) has its own separate (Gaelic) language. I don't know how interchangeable the Gaelic languages are from these remnant cultures from Scotland to France. I think they are mutually comprehensible. It might be rather like Brit English underlying American English but both have acquired different accents and use words a little differently so they have different meanings. Language is only a way of representing shared culture and it's not surprising that there are a lot of common features among Celtic tribes. Scottish and Irish kilts are different, adapting to local needs; they have similar but different dancing styles, etc etc. In more recent history Scotland and Ireland have aided each other against the common enemy, England, in part because of common religious ties (Catholicism v Protestants/Anglicans) which may overlie ancient tribal differences. How far back do you want to go? Could be one of those "endless genealogies," LOL. Who knows who was pushed out by the Celts - and what parts of those cultures became assimilated into Celtish culture? There is no part of European culture that you could really call "pure" as there has been so much cross-culture and fertilisation of ideas (and people, heh heh) that has made all of Europe so richly varied in its background. The long view shows our current "national identities" to be continually changing. Anyway, in case you're interested: Celts

Korea's answer to Susan Boyle, maybe:

Google throws up lots of stuff, but here's two sites you might find of interest. Scottish Tartans Museum Wikipedia - Tartan

For those on page 6 who haven't bothered to read the beginning of the thread and thus don't really know what's being talked about: dabobbada, that's interesting stuff you say. Thanks.

Will we be gathered together? Will we stay here? Do we SIT? Do we think it's all nonsense? Is Jesus God? Or just a man? To some extent - none of this matters. It really doesn't. What will happen, will happen. Regardless of what we believe. We can get so hung up on intellectual arguments, straining at gnats, knowing this or that Greek word. God's "gnat strainer" is finer, tighter meshed, than anything we can construct. It also has bigger holes in it. God doesn't look at our knowledge. He doesn't look at our vocabulary. He doesn't look at our argumentative ability, or our logic, or our reasoning powers. He looks on our hearts. He looks on what we do and say that comes from the heart. He looks at how we treat Him, how we treat others. He looks at the things that are good in our hearts - and the things that are not so good - and teaches us how to overcome or get rid of the bad stuff, like pride, arrogance, and so on. If we bore some basic tenets about God in mind - that he is good always - that he has compassion on all - that he is the Creator and not a magician or worse a magic toy - and if we remembered that Jesus is the embodiment of God's love to us and exemplifies it and sets the standard in heart that we should follow - then so much falls away. It's nice to know intellectual things in our heads (and trust me, I have a great selection of Bibles and study books). We grope after intellectual understanding - but if we don't know, really know, in our hearts - we know nothing.

He cut his own life short, by his choice of lifestyle, JBarrax. Coming back to the topic: I suppose it doesn't really matter whether his eye was lost due to a fish hook, or whether due to cancer. This is a man who taught that prayer and believing could deal with anything. So if he is off on a fishing trip with the other trustees (as claimed) - couldn't the trustees have prayed and healed the damage caused by the fish hook? (After rushing him to the hospital to have the barbed part removed, of course). How do you get a fish hook in your eye anyway, if you wear glasses? (When did he start wearing glasses?) And then there is prayer for healing...or the casting out (a) devil spirit(s). Caught in his own words, either way.

This must be an easy test. Not being an American, I know bug*er all about US politics. But this was my score:

Even better (and you might like it more) - enjoy a glass of red wine each day. Note: "a" glass - of reasonable size. Not half a bottle.

This thread's been through all that, BA. The "fish hook in the eye" story is new to most. But it appears to be disbelieved by most of the Cafe denizens at the time. TWI tells so many stories about things...they are incapable of "discerning truth from error."