Twinky

Never mind "live above the law" - most of these self-appointed gurus live and lived way below the law - that's both God's law, and the law of the land. If they didn't/don't know - they ought to have done - therefore they are not worthy to teach others. If they did/do know - then the usual word is "hypocrite."

If you want inspiration about carrying on - check out the Paralympics - due 2012. Those athletes have bits of them missing r damaged ... and just don't let it stop 'em enjoying and competing in life, to the max. Two awesome athletes

Another excellent post, Socks, thanks. Just thought I'd update on the new Foodbank opening in my city. Referrals can be made by social workers, district nurses, advice workers, basically any professional or quasi-prof who is aware of the need. Persons assisted are given a voucher which they take to the pick-up point (a cafe run by a church in town). Applicants are given a drink and then asked what their needs are and ages of people - any special diets, vegos, likes and dislikes, etc. So people who hate pasta might get rice, and v.v. If you don't like tinned spaghetti (who does?!) then maybe you will get beans. There is some baby food available. Very early days yet, but they are trying hard to meet needs without being condescending or making people feel other than welcome. Of course, it is not all about food. Poorer people have other needs too. Warm clothing in the winter. Footwear that doesn't leak. Safe housing/shelter. Enough money so that it is not a choice between food on the table, and heating just one room in the home. Not everyone can provide everything; sometimes it's not right to. And a basic need is to be recognized. Poor, homeless, distressed people are still people. You might not want or be able to give money, but you can give the beggar on the street a smile. Pass the time of day. Ask him what his story is ... and become aware how thin the dividing line is between success and failure, wealth and destitution. The apparent problem often comes on the back of a relationship breakdown or death. Be amazed, sometimes, at how little provision there is for some groups of people. No wonder they turn to drink to drown their sorrows.

Can't say I ever think about what the "kingdom of God" might or might not be - I just get on with living life, doing the best I know to do, being compassionate and forgiving and non-judgmental. I never got on the TWI bandwagon about any particular meaning. I look at what people do and say - I don't get involved in their theological disputes. I'd agree "heaven" and "hell" are probably something quite different from what we have been taught - either by TWI or by most churches. There's probably a huge element of Greek mythology that has become incorporated into what we assume. I don't know what becomes of people who live what seems a Godly life who have never heard of God the Father of JC; I can't think (nor ever have) that God is so mean as to banish eternally those who have lived decent lives with honorable and Godly principles - just because they lived hundreds of years ago (or even now) in Africa or Asia or Russia or the Amazon rainforest and never heard of JC. I'd prefer such a person to a "Christian" who has such a perverted view that they hurt, maim or even kill other people for not thinking as they do. Paul's epistles speak of Gentiles with the "law" written in their hearts (Rom 2:14-15 for example) in very favorable terms. But no doubt that's a different discussion.

Interesting what you say, BB. A food bank has recently started in my city. It will give out to ANYBODY even though it sits under the umbrella of the Christian charity I support. In fact, there is a speaker coming tomorrow to talk to the Advice Volunteer service that I volunteer for; I will ask her about swapping unsuitable food. I suppose there is some attempt to cater for allergies but it would depend on what has been donated. One of the other charities in the city will also give occasional donations of a gift card at the local supermarket so that people can buy what they need. That charity gives out on the recommendation from my volunteer group. Of course, we advice volunteers will only recommend where we are sure there is a real need and it will be properly used and not spent on alcohol, cigs or other unnecessary stuff.

Tell more, Steve. Reviews seem to indicate that Bell's premise is that everyone is okay and/or that there is no "hell" and that everyone (especially Gandhi?) is all right with God. Does Bell say that everyone goes to "heaven"? In which case, what does Bell say is or was the purpose of Jesus?

I support a local charity which is funded mostly by local churches. The charity helps real "dregs" - people with addiction problems, long term difficulties, really vulnerable for who knows how many reasons. The charity gives people all the time they need and does not push them - rather, offers encouragement and a variety of activities on a drop-in basis, to help these people begin to re-engage. Last year there was a get together for the volunteers, staff, and local dignitaries. .. and the clients. The food was pleasant but simple and definitely not expensive; the drinks were all soft drinks. The founder/chairman (lovely man) opened by thanking all those present - first and foremost the clients (who were busily stuffing sandwiches into their pockets) - thanking them for giving the rest of us the opportunity to serve. To record it like this sounds a little patronising - trust me, it wasn't; it was heartfelt and must have gone a long way to acnowledging the client group as members of our society, our community. Then there was a dance with simple reels and progressive actions - and everyone got to join in. The homeless ones went back to the Night Shelter and such surplus food as there might have been went back with them. Genesis Trust

Don't see any gatehouses on Google maps (photos taken about 2009) - have they got the staff to actually man a gatehouse (let alone more than one)? "Everyone's welcome at the Way" - but it's a gated community? Imagine... a pair of double gates either end...in the shape of enormous arms ... flung (and kept) wide open in welcome. To signify that we are all always welcome in God's presence. Kinda like this:

Interesting ... all extremes of anything are dangerous. Can make the extremist a danger to himself and quite possibly to society as well. Fundies come in many guises - like Richard Dawkins with his anti-God stance - can't see, hear or deal with anyone else's point of view. I'm reading a book at the moment by Jon Krakauer about some Mormon fundies - "Banner of Heaven" - these fundies murdered a woman and her baby daughter in the name of their religion. It's not a brilliantly written book and is not easy reading. However, I read it with a sort of horrified "deja vu" feel - so much of what the Mormon fundy leaders are reported as saying sounds so very familiar... scary. And the cavalier attitude to passing women around as "wives" with the very sad effects on women and children (especially young girls) is heartbreaking. Under the Banner of Heaven In 2003, Under the Banner of Heaven became Krakauer's third non-fiction bestseller. The book examines extremes of religious belief, particularly fundamentalist offshoots of Mormonism. Specifically, Krakauer looks at the practice of polygamy among the fundamentalist Mormon religion and scrutinizes it under the context of Mormon religion throughout history past and present. Much of the focus of the book is on the Lafferty brothers, who murdered in the name of their fundamentalist faith. In 2006, Tom Elliott and Pawel Gula produced the documentary, Damned to Heaven, inspired by the book, Under the Banner of Heaven. All these fundamentalists - from TWI, Christian churches, Muslims, Japanese religions - all need to be treated with care. But not given into.

Regardless...I see people who are trinitarians, and those who are non-trinitarians, get prayers answered. Deeply committed people on both sides of this understanding. I reckon God, JC, CJ, whoever, whatever, the HS ...it doesn't bother them. They work not with the understanding but with the heart to know, love and serve. We all know imperfectly. We're all in for some surprises in that time when we shall know as we are known. Meanwhile - carry on loving and serving. (Not saying this isn't an interesting discussion ! :blush:)

We could drive 'em crazier than they already are, by arriving in small numbers in private cars and driving around and around on the public roads. If not breaking speed limits, thre's nothing they could do. Legally. Imagine... a couple of hundred cars - 800 cars - more! - driving up and down Weirwille Road. A little while before SNS starts - they might think they'd hit boom time and suddenly gained in popularity. Heh heh ... leave it to you guys ... as I live overseas, a quick trip to Ohio doesn't feature prominently (or at all, actually) in my travel plans for the next 50 years.

The video's very interesting. People really adapted to their environment and working out excellent solutions. John's just showing that wonderfl TWI tendency to over-spiritualize everything. I wouldn't want to walk on the rotten bridge that he is trying to build.

mstar1, thanks for that inspirational video. The Brahmins of TWI (of which I count JL one; Rosie and CGeer others) do have that attitude of entitlement - and none of them the commensurate responsibility to give and share (except more spouting about their entitlement). Less integrity than the deserately poor people in mstar's video clip.

I have much better things to do with my time. Go to the pub. Read a non-TWI book. Hang out with non-TWI friends. Smell the roses. Enjoy life.

My understanding is not that it was used as a translation of YHWH but in the Septuagint as an alternative word by deliberate choice because use of the sacred name was ... too sacred. And the translators of the KJV followed the same pattern even tough it's not a part of western cultural heritage. Back to the topic - I still don't believe in any trinity, any concept of Jesus = God, as pre-existing other than in God's forethought (just as, indeed, you and I pre-existed in God's forethought - just as any couple planning a baby have that child pre-existing while they buy their house that will be big enough for their family even whilst actually being childless). How many times does the Bible refer to the MAN Jesus? The lamb of the flock? While God (YHWH) was busy in the OT, what was Jesus doing - lying around on a cloud? Not many refs to him except as a future redeemer. None as a presently active person, entity, being, whatever... Though I did hear one "pastor" say he was walking around with Daniel in the fiery furnace - and the same "pastor" said that Abraham meeting with angels in the desert and arguing about Sodom - well, one of the angels was actually Jesus. (No private interpretation there, then )

It would be really interesting to see a totally different perspective on this. From a Christian in India, Pakistan, Ethopia, Somalia, China. We're all from fairly similar "western" backgrounds. Our views and understandings are similar. How do you think you might think about this if you were, say, a Somali Christian who had walked days to find food, who'd watched one or more children die of starvation? Or you lived in India or Pakistan or some Arab countries, where it's an offense to convert to Christianity? Would you "get mad" with God, or just accept difficulties as part and parcel of being a Christian? or (at least) a God-believer. Did Jesus, who was rejected, beaten, abused, laughed at ... get mad with God? We know he spent a lot of time in prayer - talking with his Father. Maybe he "got mad" then. Maybe he asked why these things happened. Leastways, if he did, he got over it and didn't let it affect his dealings with people or doing his Father's will. And we know from the records in Acts and the epistles that some very bad things happened to early Christians (persecution and murder) and to Paul and his companions. They didn't blame God or get mad at him. They rejoiced, met together, sang songs ... Some of the Psalms are full of "woe is me, why is this happening?" followed by submission and acknowledgment of God's greatness. We were never promised an easy time of life. So there will be things that we could "get mad" about. We were, rather, promised difficulties. And we were also promised peace, such as the world does not give. Despite the external circumstances. Not sure that "getting mad" is quite the right response. But asking "WHY?" certainly is.

Well, you do have a point Abigail. That place left me in such a state of despair that ... well I'm still here despite them. And each day was a torment. In the day I longed for the night; in the night I longed for the day. I lost maybe 35lb because deciding what to eat was too difficult (and I'm not fat, only 140lb). No physical abuse (well not much) but the mental abuse...left me badly damaged. Strange, it's so much like a bad dream now - did it really happen??? I wasn't mad at God, just utterly full of self-condemnation for being such a failure and disappointment to him. I grovelled. Was ashamed. It took me YEARS to be able to think even slightly straight. I'd about forgotten that...like a dream, as I said. I am so thankful now for - well - everything. Not much bothers me nowadays. In my heart. The physicals - like the misery of being unemployed and existing on practically nothing - belong some other place. I always had enough. Attitude of mind is something we can all control.

Abigail, you were posting at the same time I was. Your posts are always thought-provoking. (off topic) TWI could really have helped us to understand some things better if they’d brought in a rabbi or two to explain Jewish perspectives on things – not thrown Lamsa in our faces. Anyway…lots to think about in your post. We’re all going to live each moment, each minute, each hour, each day. We can live it enjoying it, or live it as if it were a burden. As we’re going to live it anyway, what will be our attitude of mind? That’s going to affect a lot of our attitude towards God, a “higher power,” randomness or whatever else we hang our hats on. Completely but I just noticed that the post I wrote above which was timed for me at 5.32 is quoted by Soul Searcher at 12.32. This board adjusts for local time except when posts are quoted, obviously!

Interesting. I don't ever recall being angry at God. I do recall being puzzled, surprised, other responses, at what happens - or doesn't. I was ....ed off that I got laid off from work over 3 nearly 4 years ago - from a job I truly believe was God-given - and only a few months after I'd purchased my first (and only) house in this city that I moved to for the job. How could that happen - that God gives me a great job in a new city - and then just a few months later "He" takes it away??? No, I never thought He took it away - "it's the economy, stoopid!" - and I've NEVER had any debts! - but if it was a bad thing, a lemon, for sure God has turned it into lemonade. See, on the other hand, I found a great church that has been very healing to me after the battering from TWI - I spent the first few months with tears of thankfulness in very Sunday service - I have found great friends, a social life that's better than I've ever had, and now (after being on the dole [welfare] for 3 years) have set up doing "whatever" for people and don't know when I have ever felt so happy and content at work. It's like a fresh start in a new location. I still have my house and even have managed to reduce the amount of mortgage outstanding. Godliness with contentment is great gain.....I'm rich! Usually when something - let's say "less desirable" - happens, I can look at what I myself have done and know it was my own fault. I didn't pay attention and caused an accident on the road; didn't take care and fell off a ladder; took a short cut and the task was a disaster. But that's MY fault, not God's. (Not that these things have happened, but I know I've done stupid things that had the potential to cause very serious problems.) So no, I don't get angry with God. When things go "wrong," I wonder what better thing is just around the corner (even if it's some years down the line). It might be different if I had a horrible accident or was struck by some horrible disease or something very unpleasant happened to one of my loved ones. Maybe I would be angry then. But (thank God) that hasn't happened yet.

If it is his page, you can be sure that it's not open for "public viewing" but is severely restricted to chosen friends and family. Wouldn't want to cope with the flak he'd get from those he's hurt.

I thought the reason this was done was (1) to avoid names coming up in Google searches; and thereby (2) avoid the possibility of libel lawsuits.

I did wonder, Patriot, if it was a figure for everyone remaining. I decided to take a charitably kind view that they might be a little bigger than that. So every fellowship. Could be every country they're supposedly active in... like one deluded believer. Or each State they're supposedly active in... maybe likewise? Are the figures holding up their hands in surrender? Because anyone who held up "holy hands" in praise, in a service, would be well out of line.

I think it's nice that they have put a figure to represent every remaining Way fellowship.

Even worse for them: the wording of the clip from HBWB in post 1 reads: "The Way: International Trailer" [my bold] - don't know if y'all get that or it's just because I'm not in the US - maybe you get a different trailer. Looks like it could be a good movie...but the name...is enough to put me off...

"There's none so blind as them as [those who] will not see" - as my great grandfather would say. It's an old problem. Check out Jeremiah 5:21