Twinky

Johniam, please consider THESE scriptures which you may consider supersede the OT ones - being as these are addressed TO THE CHURCH TO WHICH WE NOW BELONG rather than to the OT patriarchal society. In any event, the references you quote simply state what the situation is - not state it with approval. You may come round to thinking that God doesn't have a problem with man's sex drive (after all, He put it there) PROVIDED the man keeps his sex drive under proper control ... within proper boundaries ... boundaries somewhat like these: Ephesians 5:33 KJV Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself... LOVE HIS WIFE - not someone else's wife, and not "his wives." 1 Timothy 3:2 KJV A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; A BISHOP - what's that, hmm, someone in some sort of leadership position in the church? Like the Man of God for that day and time? THE HUSBAND OF ONE WIFE - rather speaks for itself, doesn't it? Or do you think that gives a bishop/church leader to be ... a husband of one wife ... and keep a harem of other women? (And what about the other requirements for a church leader? But let's not go there on this thread.) Titus 1:6 KJV If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. THE HUSBAND OF ONE WIFE- second time it says that. And, again, to church leadership. Even in the OT you will find this: Proverbs 5:18 KJV ... rejoice with the wife of thy youth. Again - the WIFE of thy youth - NOT the "wives" of thy youth - and not with the wife of the youth (young man) that you employ, know, go to church with, or have any other communication with, either. While we're about it - lemme think - Adam's wives were called Eve and ... who else? Oh yeah, that's right. God only gave him ONE wife. How very mean of God, considering his later "approval" of 1000 women. (edited to improve layout)

JB, your post made me heave. Heard most of this before, but - heard. Seeing it written... (vomit icon please). I feel distinctly queasy. Haven't heard that one before; maybe some of that "special knowledge" for special groups (males). Ex 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. Matt 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. Wouldn't spiritual maturity be ensuring that one didn't look on a woman to lust after her? (What else is the purpose of porn?) Oh, but of course. Adultery doesn't matter, in the renewed mind or whilst seated in the heavenlies.

And as to that WC6 man, even if he'd been working 18-20 or more hours straight for a week, that still wouldn't be an excuse for falling asleep. (Nor for more humane working hours.) However, there is no condemnation to those who fall asleep and therefore fall out of windows and die. Those ones can be raised from the dead (Acts 20:9-12).

Hah, haven't thought of that in years. But I don't think it accurately reports how LCM put it. It was more along the lines of "The body holds the same relationship to the mind, as reason does to the spirit." I'm pretty sure this is what he taught. And the idea behind that was: the body is under subjection to the mind and did what the mind told it to do; and reasoning should be along spiritual lines and is subject to our spirits. Of course, the phrase could have been said in a variety of ways over the various years that it was recited - add a word, change a word, omit a word - LOL, it wouldn't be the first time that Way doctrine had been subtly changed without any overt statement. But that was it in the early 90s. Alternatively, I could be misremembering it. No recollection whatsoever of the underlined bit that's quoted. Could be that it's some of the later (or earlier) ramblings of this out-of-control loudmouth. He wouldn't know temperance if it hit him with a 2x4. I'm not going to dredge any further back into the dustbin marked "TWI" for further recollections. My Corps years - in fact, all my TWI years - were spent suffering under his inordinately long ramblings and rantings and histrionics. That's more than long enough.

Quickly, please! Only argument about that, OS, is that I don't think they're preserving his image so much as using it to preserve the cushy lifestyle and accumulated wealth for the head honchos.

I thought this bore repeating. I echo it. Though I doubt the "some day" will be soon. Twice is established: But God Himself is witness against them, if they would but listen.

You're not weird, Excie. But this Chris B - now he sounds very weird. No doubt you "cast" him far from you.

Ah, Waysider...nostalgia. "It wasn't really that bad. Heck, I met some really great people in the Corps/ at twig/ at the Rock/ whenever." Mmmmm...what was it that sign in the BRC said/says? "The best times of your life are now"? Not, I think, a comment regarding the BRC or even TWI, so much as an exhortation to live in the present, not in the past...or the future. Don't know who originally said that, but it's not a quote unique to TWI.

Thought some here might enjoy this: Interview

I love making soup with squash - Crown Prince is best - it's nothing unusual and you probably have heaps of pumpkin or squash recipes (more common / popular in the US than in the UK). It's nice with a pinch of curry powder. Just a small pinch. Adds depth of flavor but you don't notice the curry taste. Or with loads of garlic. Or with anything else you fancy, really.

Wondered if there was any further information / update?

Smoking cannabis in public? You guys are living in the wrong country: Coffeeshops ... except it's not coffee they sell ...

Oh please, Johniam, it's not all about you. Or all about VP. But you did make this good point: Couple that with: That's where compassion for others comes in. We really don't know what has happened in people's lives. That really scratchy and difficult person you know, who rebels against everything ... the attitude stems from something. I wrote a hard-line comment above about castration; unfortunately, a lot of abusers have themselves been abused, usually as children and continue to exhibit that pattern as adults. (In fact, we've even had this discussion about VPW!) Abusers may need compassion and psych help to overcome their own problems (whether abuse to themselves or something else); but they also don't need to continue to be at large and a danger to others. Many of them are well able to know right from wrong, can function properly, and have excellent strategic, planning, manipulative, and disguise skills. Some even disguise themselves as ministers of light...in more than one religious environment. And sexual predation is wider than actual assault. A significant problem today is internet pornography. That - like the man who walked into the shower but did nothing - is consenting to the abuse that takes place. Which makes the viewer just as bad as the perpetrator.

There are many ways of preying sexually on people. It's not just rape. But I'd love to make the punishment fit the crime. Whip the offending parts off. Castration. Doesn't stop males assaulting with other weapons - bottles and such like. But the risk of losing such an intimate part of oneself might be a deterrent. Apparently it's a routine punishment for sex offenders in Czech Republic (according to Wikipedia).

Steve, as a former cult leader you have a lot to share about what leading a church/fellowship/whatever, about what it is NOT. You have learned to beware the groupthink and the shared values that are inappropriate. You have learned about the insidious way that false leaders lay out, the blind leader and the way into the ditch. You know the dangers, pitfalls, and over-respect of the leader. You can share all this, with a view to helping others to see when their egos are beginning to take over - when they themselves are magnified, and not God. Any of your fellow students should be willing to learn, with humility, the traps that the devil can lay before them. And hopefully any of your fellow students with ego problems who might follow down that path will be exposed at an early stage. You could also do worse than invite them to read Toxic Faith, and The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse. That's if they want to help people, and genuinely avoid leading people astray.

You got it, Waysider. It is three days later. Nessie still has indigestion. LNM: This indigestion is getting worse. CG: Wouldn't you like more harmony... LNM: More harm...?! CG: Help you separate truth from error! LNM: I would like to separate you from me. CG: You can learn to believe for healing! LNM: Eeling? Eels??!! CG: If you would just sign this green card, I can guarantee that it will bring ... LNM: Will you STOP banging that drum! CG: It's word over the water. LNM: (Has had enough) (vomits CG into a used lipstick-stained coffee cup)

Funny thread, thanks for bumping it, Ham. I'd like to see CG walking on Loch Lomond (near Gartmore). Hey, suppose he walked on Loch Ness (famed for its monster). CG: Nice day for a stroll. LNM: Get off my back! CG: Who said that? LNM: My name is Nessie and I have lived in this loch for thousands of years. CG: No, you and all your kind were wiped out with the first heaven and earth. LMN: What kind of creature are you anyway? Are you edible? CG: I am a human being and my kind have been around for 4000 years. LNM: I give you 4 seconds to get out of my space. CG: I will cast you out - you are just an evil spirit. LNM: (slurps) LNM: (thinks) Maybe that wasn't such a good idea...got indigestion now...

Wayfers can be very good at talking AT you and scarcely pausing for breath; not looking at you, but just coming out with their spiel. They will talk to you about being meek and ready to receive and they are the epitome of not being meek to anything other than Way teaching. Dialogue is meaningless. They only understand monologue and manipulation. Yes, it would be disrespectful to start pushing your views in an overt and argumentative way. But you can ask questions. Any other fellowship in any other denomination would probably be delighted if you'd visit. Wayfers tend to see you not as a visitor but as a prospect for their Class. Your wife might find the Wayfers she knows would start marking and avoiding her if she went to "visit" and didn't stay. How important is that to her? It may depend on how mature the Wayfers are in your area, and what they've been through themselves. Just because they avoid you (if they do), doesn't mean that you avoid them. You can still greet them if you see them in the street, in the store, at the game. If they back away in fear, just shows how small their pet God is. Do go, go a few times, stay aware, and tell us how it went.

Excie, you don't need to pick on Naten. He seems to be asking with genuineness. Part of what I learned growing up was to put things into my own words - own expressions. Showed I understood what I'd been taught. Tried that with a section of the Blue Book. You'd have thought I was speaking in Martian, for the "I don't understand" expressions on the faces of the TC and some of the others. Other places, stuff I'd worked for myself was received with interest. Think it all depended on how legalistic the TC was - how much s/he (though they were all "he") was prepared to adhere to the party line. Which would depend in part on how much he himself had been mentally beaten by TWI, and when. Corps raised under LCM and especially after his "toe the line" letter - toed the line. Older pre-LCM Corps allowed much more mental freedom until they themselves got reeled in. So, Naten...have you been to a fellowship yet? And if so, what did you think of it?

If you go - don't leave your critical thinking skills at home. Be kind, be considerate. But don't be a fool.

As far as money/tithes goes, as to supporting corrupt leadership - Jesus didn't say anything about not paying tithes and offerings. In fact, he approved a really broke woman paying all she had. And he himself paid his dues to the very people he said were "of their father, the devil" and "a brood of vipers." So what becomes of ABS is really irrelevant to Naten's question. If he goes and if the horn of plenty is passed (or whatever they use nowadays) then he simply doesn't put anything in it. So much depends on who runs the fellowship, at the twig level. Some will be run by great people who genuinely love and care for those in the twig. Some are run by autocrats who themselves want to be seen as the fount of all knowledge. Some of the best people I have met have been at twig level. In fact, Naten, go a few times. After a month, count how many times they ask if you've taken the class yet. Or if you ask a question, do they answer it themselves, or tell you that the answer is "in the class." Ask a lot of details about this class. Specifically, whether you can ask questions to clarify your understanding during the session, during the teaching. Betcha can't.

Looks like he was not walking in God's power! I don't wish ill to the man. It's clearly serious, and very stressful to Barbara and the children. I have this strange sense of deja vu - will his ill-health be blamed on the burden he is bearing for all believers? Will it become the believers' faults that he is so ill? (we already know what a VP-emulator he has been in the past!)

This is just plain neighborliness. It shouldn't come as a surprise. My Mum told me of a time when my Dad's motorcycle broke down - rainy night, miles from anywhere - people in the only house gladly provided help and shelter. The walking club I used to go out with got stopped by a swollen stream - our transport couldn't cross it - a farmer kindly lent his sheephands' place and about 20 people crammed into it. Two who went for rescue (in shorts, in the snow and rain - I forget all the details of why now) - were rescued by total strangers who let them sleep in their house overnight till the storm stopped. I have both rescued strangers in need and invited them into my home; and been rescued when I've had a need. Of course - one has to "walk" with care!!! Always be ready to lend a hand. For no thought of reward beyond meeting a need. In such a manner, we are told, some have entertained angels unaware. WoW!!!!!!

"For our learning"... What does this mean? FOR US TO LEARN FROM!!! How are we supposed to learn from it if we aren't allowed to read it? How can we apply the lessons taught, so that we ourselves, having supposedly greater riches, don't ourselves fall in weakness through not understanding. By not knowing the lessons that are FOR OUR LEARNING. The epistles are full of refs to OT incidents. How many regularly checked out the OT section(s) that were referred to, in order to gain a greater understanding? EG Rom 10:9,10 - refers back to the blessings and cursings of Deut 27-31 - what they were supposed to do when they entered the promised land. Okay, how is this applicable to us in OUR promised land of the renewed mind? What kind of things are we to keep in mind? What to do, and what not to do? Where are the snares and traps that could distract us? Yet the blessings and cursings ... were so that people could learn to love God and hear his voice! Plenty there that we can learn from! Reading the epistles is good. Reading the epistles with depth of understanding - is better. And engaging brain to work out apparent contradictions or odd incidents - is better yet. That's how we learn. Unless we are parrots.

Sir Isaac Newton Knowledge is cumulative and we don't need to keep re-inventing the wheel. We do need to check the wheel from time to time to see that it is still true, that the spokes aren't worn or broken...and be willing to get a new wheel if the old one is too warped to sustain further remedy. We know only in part...so we must be ready to change when new "parts" become accessible, quite often through cross-fertilisation of ideas. Only those who would keep us in ignorance and control us restrict ability to learn and outside sources of learning. Let's acknowledge those who have helped us as communities see further... Otherwise, we'd be living in caves, not built houses. And our houses would not have indoor sanitation. And that would only apply to those of us who fought off the ravages of many diseases that not so long ago used to kill people - now we have medicines to help us overcome diseases that are still killers in some countries.