oldiesman

I was listening to WABC radio in NY this weekend (Sunday), "Religion on the Line" or something. It's hosted by a Roman Catholic Father and Jewish Rabbi. The topic was abortion, and the Rabbi mentioned that "there's some room for abortion in Jewish thought", and "there's a difference between life, and potential life." He quoted Exodus as being a miscarriage, in Jewish teaching. No mistake about it. I think his name is Rabbi Joseph Petasnik or something.

Raf, my apology was indeed heartfelt and serious, and the only reason why I asked Imbus that question was cause she stated earlier that she didn't take anything I had to say seriously. I'm glad she didn't that one condescending comment seriously, but I hope my other comments are taken seriously. George, I hope to earn respect with folks, but if it doesn't happen because of my beliefs, that's something I'll live with. But I do wish the namecalling would stop. If I expressed myself the way you did, feeling futility and using that word, I'd be thoroughly grilled.

I was there too, but didn't take it literally, obviously, cause I don't even remember the comment. I opine that if it was to be taken literally, really literally, that it probably would have been written down and documented in some way, for us to make no mistake about its meaning and importance.

Imbus: Imbus, so then I assume you didn't take the apology seriously as well? George: George, I see where you're coming from, but don't think VPW meant that we take that literally, and folks didn't. PFAL on par with Ephesians? I take that as a figure of speech, but you believe whatever you want. I'm sure Mike believes it wholeheartedly. Your last line comment looks like namecalling, and again, I really wish folks would cut that out. MO, I realize you were upset, thanks so much for the apology.

Yeah it feels great but it seems things are just so boring now.

Imbus said: Folks, thanks for feeding my secondary needs. Imbus, I apologize for saying..you know...

no man anything, but love ...

Goey, not this again. Every time I say I have you pegged a certain way, you come around and say I'm falsifying your position on TWI-1. I don't see you as thinking that it was from God. That's why you left, and that's why you have little nice things to say about it. At least I don't get it. Perhaps you can elaborate, for the record, the godly elements and fruit of Wierwille's stand and TWI-1. I'll jot them down, so I don't forget. I didn't respond to the rest of your post because I'm still thinking all of it over in my head. In spite of what some folks might think, I do read and consider diverse opinions.

Raf, that wasn't ALL I said, but thanks to your nagging, I do admit it was condescending of me to say it, and / or say it the way I did. It didn't have to be said. Thanks for pointing that out. Iron sharpeneth iron.

Goey, when did I say that TWI-1 was abuse free? I've consistently said that there was both good and evil going on. Haven't you been listening? or too busy listening to yourself to hear what I've said? I do still believe that TWI-1 was a true movement of God...at least that's the way I see the good things that resulted. But some folks here like yourself just find that thought repugnant, and that's unfortunate.

Raf, I disagree with your reasons for the apology, and judging from Imbus's response just now, no apology will be forthcoming. Also, I'm getting tired of your namecalling. Please cut that out.

George, if you're referring to PFAL '77, your analogy doesn't fly. If that was really true, that PFAL 77 was God Breathed and he portrayed it as such, don't you think he would have made it one of those mandatory classes everyone should take? After all, it replaces the old one? As it turned out, I don't think any of us saw the finished product on tape, I know I didn't. I still disagree that adultery in TWI had its roots from PFAL.

Raf, What exactly are you asking me to apologize for? For equating Imbus's act with adultery? or for mentioning it here?

Watered Garden, I already agree with what you're saying so I'm not sure what you're point is. PFAL isn't 100% truth. It has errors.

Excathedra, I may not respond to you nearly as much as I could, or should, so it might not look like I'm listening to you; but please know that I do read and consider what you say.

Tom, there's plenty of accusatory b.s. to go around, and there have been plenty of things said that hurt me, as well. I think the problem why some folks get so emotional is maybe the level of hatred they have toward Wierwille and the BOT. Some folks just can't tolerate differing opinions. Therefore challenging very strong hateful emotions can be hurtful to those who harbor them. It happens to me as well sometimes.

Watered Garden, I agree with you, PFAL isn't God Breathed and Dr. Wierwille never suggested same. Regarding the woman caught in adultery, Jesus didn't condemn the woman. But he did call her action "sin". He said: "Go and sin no more".

Goey I don't think there are any meaningful parallels between David and Dr. Wierwille. That's your (and others who want to discredit Wierwille and PFAL) mindset fantasy. Dr. Wierwille was not a king and all way corps girls didn't "belong" to him. It is reported that Wierwille was a sex addict, who could have had "thousands of women". Geeze. So these thousands of women were all of them intimidated and feared into having sex, with repercussions if they failed to comply with the king? I don't buy it, it's too outlandish. I think most of these were consentual encounters. And there's some evidence of this, if you read "The Cult That Snapped". Apparently having sex with Wierwille in the large number of cases wasn't an intimidating experience. I'm not denying it never happened (please don't accuse me of that) just saying it wasn't the norm. It really doesn't make sense, otherwise I think you'd have many many more stories of abuse out there, and not just now either -- I think you would have heard it back then.

Garth: Garth, I firmly believe it's to Pawtucket's credit that folks like Mike and me haven't been banned. Free thought and speech is the best, otherwise we have another cult-like group, don't we? "Let's all think alike" is that really what you want?

MO, you've got me pegged all wrong, and I really don't know what you're talking about. I never suggested your children weren't abused or that the leadership was correct. I think your letting your mind wander into fantasy land.

Hope, if having a strong opinion on an issue and being unyielding about it is evidence of abuse, well, I think most of us can share in that. Regarding having compassion and empathy, I think all of us could use more all the time. Hope, you mentioned this more than once. What do you think happens when opinions differ? The differing opinions are discussed. If folks don't think much of the opinions, they shouldn't post. They shouldn't read what I have to say. I think maybe you just want me to be quiet? I won't believe what everyone is trying to relate because I was taught to abuse others? Please make some sense. I am always open to logic and reason, and have listened to folks, without calling them names.

Raf: I think the "every woman in the kingdom belonged to the king" story is falsely applied to Wierwille, principally here at GS Cafe. There are other analogies that may be used, and I'm sure will be. But using that specific one, delightfully and gleefully with razor sharp precision brought forth from PFAL by some, is a giant fanciful leap to specifically degrade PFAL. I discussed this theory with a couple of old time twiggies last nite, and they thought it was a below-the-belt misapplication as I do. Yes, I think this is a GS propogation, much like the "Christ is Absent" false accusation. Repeat it long enough and loud enough and some will believe.

def 59 I'm taking fresh looks all the time, but making the giant leap that one or two sentences in PFAL, where he's not talking about himself at all, is the root cause of adultery in TWI, is something I don't assent to. You may believe it if you wish, it's your choice. Still haven't made the connection with that and PFAL, but I suppose theories and accusations about it will continue to fly.

Raf, yes I do see exactly that I committed fornication. I take responsibility for it; I made a boo boo. I guess to be honest, I take 50% responsibility; 50% was on the girl. NONE, on PFAL. Have a great evening, I'm done for now.

Yes. And I do so without using PFAL as the catalyst. Yes. Yes. I agree. I think we mostly have agreement here, def 59.