oldiesman

To my knowledge there is no evidence at all. Golly it's so nice to be called names again.

I really do doubt it. When there were non-tithing believers asked to leave, I suspect it had more to do with reasons other than tithing; although lack of tithing might have been considered another nail in the coffin, so to speak. To my knowledge, there were never any teachings from hq that tithing was a requirement for admission or continued involvement.

I suppose back in "those good old days of twi" we called it "claiming the promises of God", to which I have no condemnation or regrets.

I think if your (or my) mindset and believing was to enjoy the fellowship and move the Word in the spirit with the love of God, a la Romans 10: 14, 15 so that folks would be blessed the way God blessed you and me, your (and my) involvement was anything but a life-sucking entanglement. This is true of any church you may belong to. Without a Godly mindset and attitude of love and meekness of what God did for you, all religion could be like prison.

Polar Bear, During my twi stint (1973-1991) , there was no mandatory tithe or else you're out. But, I could see some region or area coordinator getting on some high horse and possibly doing this. Am interested what time period this was? This is the first I've heard that under orders from hq, someone actually was kicked out for not tithing. Are you sure there weren't any other circumstances besides tithing alone? There is only one written record of Abraham tithing. Whether he tithed a second, third, fourth, fifth, hundredth time; the bible doesn't say.

Thanks Mother of 2.. Its Friday have a great weekend, one and all..

T-Bone please use larger fonts I can't see.

I agree with you on this point... they should have emphasized the "freely avail" part more especially in the later years. But still, you can't blame others for your own involvement. I don't even put a blanket judgment on folks who are involved today... it's The United States of America and we have freedom of religion... If twi is their chosen religion and where they think they have their best fellowship with God, then that's what they choose. By the way, I think this is the overwhelming answer you'd get from most ex-way. ALL of the folks I know have this same opinion. Thanks for reminding me skyrider.

Perspective varies depending on the individual. If you want to say that "slick vic" indoctrinated and manipulated you, your entitled to your opinion. But even so, it's an indoctrination process and lifestyle YOU CHOSE TO BELIEVE AND PARTICIPATE IN. And ... "slick vic" didn't kidnap you, didn't force you and didn't want you to be there if you didn't WANT to be there.

Oakspear, that statement exactly describes the exodus of 1989 in New York State to a tee.. ************** I think TWI was about following both God and men (and women).

Based upon the truth that the real you is the Christ in you, yes, I think twi taught keys on how to become Word conditioned and aware, rather than self conditioned or circumstance conditioned. Of course, how that related to an individual was according to that individuals own commitment, attitude and mindset. It was up to the individual how far one wanted to go with "walking in the spirit".

Yet another example that if one regrets their twi stint, they have nobody to blame but themselves. TWI didn't want folks if folks didn't want to be there.

That's good wisdom Mo. I believe God already sorted things out and we're all gonna be there. Praise God.

He said he believed in Jesus Christ and that God raised him from the dead; he said he loved Jesus Christ and Christ was his lord and savior. I believe Wierwille when he said that, so yeah, I think and believe he is born again, because I believe that Wierwille was honest when he said that and God's Word is truth and will come to pass.

This is true. I think it's fair that one may describe what a person is on the inside by what they do, what they teach, what they think, what they speak, etc.

Off topic. What I'm saying is, if an alcoholic father who abuses his children does Romans 10:9, he shall be saved according to the scriptures. Salvation and getting born again, isn't about the goodness or badness of ones behavior. It's about God's grace, and faith in God's promise to bring it to pass.

I went back and read Galatians and it doesn't say what you describe. It talks about "the works of the flesh" and "fruit of the spirit". But it doesn't characterize people as "of the flesh" or "of the spirit" in those verses. Since we Christians are made up of both flesh and spirit, we do (or are capable of) doing the works of both.

We know what was in Wierwilles heart by what he taught and said, both positive and negative. By the fruit, if you will. He and you and me are not saved by works, but when we look at a persons life and see what comes out of their mouth, their works, what they did; what they are devoted to,;; it demonstrates whats on the inside. He also spoke in tongues... Isn't that why you believe Wierwille was a monster because of his evil works? BTW, I believe he was wrong about SIT being the only way to "really know" a person is saved.

I really don't know either, but if Wierwille or anyone else is born again, he received God's gift of holy spirit, he already has eternal life, sealed with holy spirit. The fact that he didn't confess his sins before his death wouldn't matter. The religion of my youth taught that. That's a Roman Catholic teaching and if you are of that belief then I understand where you're coming from. But I believe differently now.

I can't prove that God exists either; but this is a debate about opinions and beliefs. On the topic of salvation, I don't speculate. What this really is, I think, is a debate and argument about what scriptures one really believes.

But not the topic of salvation and getting born again, which is what we are debating now.

The bible describes the men who wrote the bible as "holy men of God". I don't compare Wierwille to these men, but if we're talking sins, some of those men committed worse than Wierwille and they are called "holy men of God". ************** A person's salvation is not based on their behavior, or good works. It is based on GOD's GRACE which is BIGGER than MANS BEHAVIOR.

When it comes to salvation I don't speculate this point. A man that teaches for over 40 years that Jesus Christ is the lord and savior and Messiah, doesn't doubt Roman's 10:9 and other scriptures about sonship. He leads others to this rock-solid belief in God and Christ's gift of holy spirit and salvation, yet he himself doesn't believe it? That's like Orville Reddenbahker not knowing what popcorn is. God would have to withhold His gifts, grace and mercy from Wierwille and others.... something I don't believe.

All human beings are *in the flesh* and *of the flesh*. But we also have holy spirit. But if I believe Gal 5:19-21 and just that, and throw out everything else, yeah, Dr. Wierwille (and I suppose some of us as well) are going to hell and will not get to heaven and paradise. But I would have to ignore great sections of scripture, some of which the following: Romans 10:9 -- confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, believe in thy heart God raised him from the dead and "thou SHALT be saved". It says "thou shalt be saved". For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Ephesians 2:8,9: -- we are saved by God's grace, through faith in Christ. Not of works lest any man should boast. Ephesians 1 -- God has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies, chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, we are holy and without blame before him in love, predestinated us to be his children, accepted in the beloved, redemption thru his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace, having obtained an inheritance, being predestinated, being sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is the token of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession. I John 1:9 -- God forgives sins. ******************* I think the meaning of Gal 5:19-21 must be interpreted in a way that doesn't contradict the above. TWI taught that Gal 5:19-21 means loss of rewards. I certainly do believe that. I do not doubt God's Grace working in lives of sinners. ******************* Saul of Tarsus on the road to Damascus was getting ready to murder a few more Christians. If we take Gal 5: 19-21 literally, he would have no inheritance in the kingdom of God. Jesus never would have appeared. No grace and mercy. No forgiveness. The party's over.

Well now at least we have something to debate! A man teaches for over 40 years that it's Christ in you, the hope of glory, we are saved by God's grace, not works, Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the son of God, the head of the body, the Master, one baptism thru HIM, CHRIST many folks get blessed and become part of the body of Christ, if not so already The fullness of the head God dwells in Christ, which dwells in you, teaching over and over you are righteous now, we are seated in the heavenlies, we are completely completely absolutely complete in Him on and on and on, and this man who taught all this for over 40 years didn't believe it himself, and this man is not born again.... or even worse, born of the seed of the serpent? will burn like a crisp in hell. PREPOSTEROUS! please send me what your smoking I want some.