oldiesman

And so did Dr. Wierwille, many, many times. And your point is? Come on T-Bone, wheres the beef? If you say Wierwille wasn't born again, at least we have something to argue about. :)

I disagree. A Christian is one who is saved, born again, with Christ in Him / Her the Hope of Glory, via God's Grace and belief in Christ ( Roman's 10:9 ). Christianity is about what God has wrought thru Christ, not about man's good character.

There are double standards being applied but not by me.

I'll leave the bad fruit up to you to communicate if you wish. We certainly can't ignore it and it matters. But from a godly perspective, some good fruit would be: folks coming to a greater knowledge and understanding of the truth; greater appreciation of the bible; (in my case, simple appreciation since I didn't appreciate it before) greater love for God and Christ; folks getting born again; folks learning who they are in Christ; folks still benefitting from his teaching... ******************** You are appalled I compare David, Solomon, and Saul of Tarsus to Wierwille in the sin category? Golly, if the internet were around back then, I think these guys would be way more condemned than Wierwille ever was. These men committed much much worse evil than Wierwille; yet, God worked with them to communicate tremendous truths that are ever enduring. They are not on the same level. David, Solomon and Saul of Tarsus committed much worse evils.

T-Bone, If the answer were as simple as that, you'd have to throw away the Song of Solomon, Psalms, Proverbs, and maybe even the Epistles because of the evil works of the writers. Might as well throw out the entire bible because the whole thing was written by imperfect, flawed, sinning humans. Your formula seems to be simple: Just look at the fruit of these men, when they walked wickedly, and call them false prophets based upon the fruit produced when they walked wickedly, and forget everything else.

The fruit of Wierwilles life and teachings are both good and bad, so I believe your question is non conclusive as a blanket, one-size-fits-all rhetorical question that has a conclusive answer for everyone.

If our lives and walks (including Wierwilles) are compared with the Master, I humbly suggest we all would fail miserably.

Polar Bear, I still have some excellent tapes of Dr. Wierwille teaching about love of God from the gospels "from those good old days of TWI". I want to convert these to my Ipod.

George, Take your clothes to the dry cleaners and let them wash it for you. Saves loads of time and best money you'll ever spend.

Thinking back there was perhaps some divine intervention pursuant to my attendance at the Rock for my second WOW year. No kidding. I told a few folks of my plans, and arranged a ride with a gorgeous but ditzy young lady of the Bronx. Anyway, if you can believe this, 3 days before leaving (I think it was three, could have been a little more or less) I call her to confirm all the plans, and she says, "Oh I'm so sorry there's no room for you in the car". Words can't express how angry I was. "Now you tell me days before we're leaving and say you can't fit me in your car?" "do you realize I'm doing WOW?" Thanks so much. So I figured screw everything and that was that, I wasn't going to the Rock that year, staying home and doing my own thing. Next day, an established believer who I hadn't spoken to for years calls me and says "I understand you need a ride to the Rock".!. This was the spirit at work because the young lady who sandbagged me didn't contact this guy. Still thought I would have done ok staying home, but with that kind of magic I just couldn't.

Welcome Copenhagen. I went WOW twice and, thinking back, perhaps shouldn't have gone the second time. My first year was much better. But at the time, I had nothing better to do, so I went. In December of 1973 I was at a CFS camp in NY. Walking along the grass near the water, Dr. Wierwille put his arm around me and asked how I was doing. I said fine, told him I was considering going WOW, and asked him what was the best thing to do AFTER going WOW... He told me "the best thing is to go back to your area and teach what you learned." I should have listened to him. Instead of that, I went in the corps after my first wow year, and it only lasted 6 months ... I dont' want to say my second WOW year was a waste of time, but had I stayed home, I would have been very fine.

Could be wrong but I remember reading someplace that dogs and cats were once of the same species of animal, and evolved. If that is true, then the evolution would have been in the species, not the genus; and if that's the case then maybe that is what makes what happened possible and wouldn't necessarily contradict Wierwille's teaching.

I actually still like the repetition. Just one example: "It's Christ in You, the Hope of Glory"... "It's Christ in You, the Hope of Glory"... "It's Christ in You, the Hope of Glory"... I think it builds believing, and is comforting. Was listening to the ipod again this morning, this time another of Wierwilles "oldies but goodies" called "Christ Formed In You". It was excellent. I'm happy to make a CD of these teachings avaaaaaaaaaaaailable for anyone who wants to download it to their Ipod. PM me if interested. A thought that crossed my mind while listening, that one may just sit and relax and enjoy these inspirational teachings and benefit from the truths communicated therein... having love and appreciation for God, Jesus Christ, and the bible ... without being involved with twi or a religious order. I have no desire to go back or to be involved in any religious group, yet may still enjoy hearing these comforting truths from the bible.

Tom it's funny you bring this back up. Just last night on the way home from work, I was listening to some music on my Ipod and kept switching and switching and then switched to one of VPW's teachings that Mike sent me on CD several months ago. It was quite good. I have a whole bunch of cassette tapes from "those good old days of TWI" of VP and others that I'd like to put on the computer, then transfer to my ipod. I understand there may exist an instrument to do this. Thanks Tom. :)

Don't Mess With My SS Check

John, we did hang out some during the trip. I remember going with him and a couple of other bikers to Lake Louise in Banff. We were on the coach chatting a few times with Mrs. Wierwille. Other times, we hung out as a group. Can't say how much "fun" it was for him. He had his glass eye by then which was probably uncomfortable. His behavior seemed to me what one might expect, sort of grandfatherly as has been described by folks at various times.

Tom, they were present tense as of the ride, 1984. I would imagine most if not all these folks are out now.

I guess it's ok to mention the folks' names who participated in this event. Some of these names will sound very familiar to some of you. I have nothing but the fondest memories of these wonderful people. Along with the Wierwilles, here's the list and occupations of the full-time folks back in 1984: Cotton-broker Dave Scherz and his wife, Gaye, from Oak Grove, Louisiana; Clarence and Barbara Taylor, both welders with Allison Gas Turbine Operations (both worked on the new engines for Ambassador One) from Greenwood, Indiana; Lance and Linda Evans (he is a tool and dye maker) from Colonia, New Jersey; Tim and Ellen Warga, Eleventh and Sixth Corps graduates, currently from Canandaigua, New York; Rev. Bo Reahard, First Corps and Branch Coordinator in Atlanta, Georgia (who brought along a portable computer to handle all the daily statistics and produce daily reports on the tour); Mark Tompary, Seventh Corps, who works as a mechanic for Fleet Services at Headquarters; Jeff Gardner, College Division, currently finishing up his Master's in chemical engineering at the University of Houston, Texas; Phil Polizotto, a word processing specialist from the Bronx, New York; George Lee, who works as flight mechanic at Headquarters; Rev. Ellie Ray Allen, who works as a surveyor (Allen and Associates), from New Bremen, Ohio; Linda Emmons, Seventh Corps, from New Bremen, also working with Allen and Associates. Driving the support vehicles were: Rev. Joel Burke, Fourth Corps; Bill Warga, College Division; and Peter Esmonde, Eleventh Corps and finally, Elena Whiteside, the historian and photographer.

Here are the dates and locations where we stopped: July 2 Shirley Illinois July 3 Des Moines, Iowa July 4 Decatur, Nebraska July 5 Badlands, South Dakota July 6 Mt. Rushmore, South Dakota July 7 Billings, Montana July 8 Helena, Montana July 9 Seeley Lake, Montana July 9 Kalispell, Montana July 10 Kalispell, Montana July 11 Roosville, British Columbia July 11 Banff, Alberta July 12 Banff, Alberta July 13 Banff, Alberta July 14 Calgary, Alberta July 15 Calgary, Alberta July 16 Great Falls, Montana July 17 Mammoth Hot Springs, Wyoming July 18 Pocatello, Idaho July 19 Ogden, Utah July 20 Gunnison, Colorado July 21 Pueblo, Colorado July 22 Garden City, Kansas July 23 Hutchinson, Kansas July 24 Emporia, Kansas July 25 Columbia, Missouri July 26 Quincy, Illinois July 27 Rome City, Indiana July 28 Headquarters

Guys, it was a real exciting trip, a great blessing to me; and for the sport of motorcycling pretty darn rare I think. I've never been able to do something like this ever again, and its been 22 years now. Here's more information: "One of the key ingredients in such a marathon tour is organization. For almost a year prior to our departure a steering committee of experienced motorcyclists planned our itinerary and plotted our route. Through discussions among the group members, we reached a consensus about our plans. Fortunately two of our participants had ridden to Calgary, Alberta our final destination, the preceding summer to gather information about routing, weather and points of interest. "During the planning months all believers were invited to join. We had decided beforehand that for such a tour we could take a maximum of twelve cycles," Ellie Ray remarked. "We required experienced cyclists who knew their equipment and had at least a 750cc machine.." By fall of 1983, the full-time participants were chosen. The first of many lists we assembled set forth the requirements of each participant. Equipment, personal gear and physical conditioning for each rider were very important. We knew that such a tour would not be practical for novices regardless of their enthusiasm. Riders with less than 750cc machines were discouraged and everyone had to be ready for any weather conditions, from temperatures below freezing to over 100 degrees -- rain or shine. While reviewing the applications, the steering committee was setting up accommodations in advance. They contacted state police in each of the 13 states we would travel through to determine the best roads. In case of construction or poor conditions, alternate routes were selected. Each cyclist received a handbook and checklists and safety reminders. Plans were made to carry a portable computer in one of the support vehicles to log each bike's performance each day. It would monitor mileage, maintenance and repairs under changing road conditions and temperatures. Maintenance checks were performed on each motorcycle prior to departure.

Folks, I was unable to find the journal but I'll enact a more rigorous search this weekend. I hope to find some pictures too. Meantime, I found two magazines that discussed this event, the September/October 1984 Way Magazine, the one with the Wierwilles and Doggie on the cover in the Twig Hopper. The other magazine was an article in the March 1985 issue of American Motorcyclist. Excerpts from these give some background information: Rev. Ellie Ray Allen, the Cycle Master, did most of the coordination of this event: "To see the Word of God live in the sport of motorcycling, Rev. Ellie Ray Allen, formerly an AMA Class C racer, more recently a graduate of the Seventh Way Corps, and several other believers who enjoy the sport, formed the Family Motorcycle Club... With Ellie Ray as president, the main purpose of the club is to bless people by teaching Biblical ethics and their application to the sport of motorcycling. Since it is open for anyone to join and will be organizing tours and other activities in the future, the club also serves as an excellent avenue of outreach to move God's Word. "Why would this diverse group decide to participate in such an undertaking? Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille, founding president of The Way International, a Biblical research, teaching and fellowship ministry, organized the group tour as a way of emphasizing family involvement in the sport of motorcycling. The common bond joining us together was our shared love of God, this country and motorcycling." At the Sunday nite service the evening before, Wierwille listed the three goals of the Calgary 1984 Tour: (1) to bless the believers, both those on the tour and those we visit; (2) to bless our country and Canada; (3) to live the more abundant life and to fellowship. On July 2, 1984, the Family Motorcycle Club launched its maiden tour from New Knoxville, Ohio, to Calgary, Alberta, Canada, and back. We planned to be gone 27 days, covering 5,627 miles through 13 states and two Canadian provinces. Twenty-one people, six Harleys, two Hondas, one Kawasaki, one Triumph, one Yamaha, two custom coaches with trailers, and one dog -- Adda, the Wierwilles German shorthaired pointer. Our 21 riders and passengers came together from Louisiana, Texas, New York, New Jersey, Indiana and Ohio. They ranged in age from 25 to 69 and included three sets of grandparents and a number of parents and singles. Among us we had everything from airplane and auto mechanics to a word-processing specialist and a cotton broker. Three were qualified motorcycle mechanics, one an emergency medical technician and another a nurse.

These were all good years for me but the highlight was the motorcycle trip with Dr. & Mrs. Wierwille in 1984. I'll try to dig up the journal and share stories from it.

me so ho-ly

Noni, The following is an excerpt from PFAL: Excerpted from PFAL Part IV -- The New Birth Chapter 19 -- Born Again of Incorruptible Seed Pgs. 295-98 Victor Paul Wierwille

When it comes to what twi taught all along on "how to get born again", I doubt that very much. TWI's teaching on salvation is and always has been very clear and simple.