oldiesman

FOR ME TO POOP ON...HEH HEH HEH

If this statement is what you're referring to, it's hardly an answer, because there was a wide variety of fruit, both good and bad. If you wish to analyze specific situations and say "this situation" or "that situation" wasn't on God' authority, I would likely agree with you depending on the facts.

This is the exact point I was making before. If someone wanted you to tithe and you refused, that was that. There was no requirement. What I would consider a "requirement", would be if one refused, and then ultimately got booted out because of it. Has anyone heard of that ever happening?

How do you know that, and with such authority?

You'd lose. Save your money.

The IRS lost their case and twi proved they were.

Nothing wrong with preaching the gospel ... in fact it's downright noble. If that's a form of pitching Jesus as you may call it, it certainly is sanctioned in the scriptures.

It probably couldn't succeed under the First Amendment, at least. First Amendment: If twi teaches as part of their religious doctrine, that God's hand of protection and blessing is taken away from a person for failure to tithe, then that teaching would be considered a protected form of speech and religion under the First Amendment. Then after that, one would have to prove twi's "intent" to cause harm, a very hard thing to prove.

I will dig them out... I think some were quite good.

I guess it does John. But way back in the '70's we had no reason to disbelieve Wierwille when he said "lots of the stuff I teach is not original", and that he "sought enlightenment from men of God scattered across the continent." He did say those things. We did read those things, before the Information Age. Things easy to understand, that are self explanatory, without all the spin. So simple, that dummies need not err therein.

I'm a dummy and I read this stuff way back in 1973, before the Information Age. The statement "lots of the stuff I teach is not original" is from the Way Living in Love, published 1972. The statement he "sought enlightenment from men of God scattered across the continent" was from some of the collaterals of PFAL. I suppose there are some folks who haven't heard or read this stuff. But I also think there are lots of folks who know exactly what I am talking about, who post here.

I agree, and he made it clear that lots of the stuff he taught was not original. Not only was that in written form in 1972, from a popular book in the twi bookstore, but he said it to folks for years. I guess I should cut some slack for folks who just came aboard in the 1990s.. maybe they didn't read it and know VP. But someone whos been around for 20-30 years? Been in the corps? Also written in the books he "sought enlightenment from men of God scattered across the continent". A person who receives all his stuff from revelation, who researches independently apart from anyone else, doesn't need to do that. He's already enlightened, directly, from God. Nah, I stand by my belief. Maybe if he said "I received all the stuff I teach from my own independent research". But he didn't say that. He did say he researched independently... but then folks read into that statement and assume that means all his stuff was original. It wasn't. He told us it wasn't. But you know what happens when we assume stuff? Still waiting to hear back from John. Dummies need enlightenment.

This may be a good time to break out some of my Way Memorabilia letters from twi leaders regarding questions I had on tithing. :) Before I start re-typing these letters, a question ... Are we allowed to post communications of this nature?

I see what you're saying and it was definitely wrong for twi to teach that God would abandon us if we didn't give money. I was repulsed by those thoughts, and in fact actually proved otherwise when I deliberately stopped tithing to see if I'd get abandoned. I didn't, and still had pleasurable participation in twi.

Really has nothing to do with Piffle. Piffle doesn't set the twi policies, the BOD does. I would like to know, myself. So far, haven't heard they do.

Yes that's right. There was some fear motivation associated with it. Christians Should Be Prosperous even said something like "tithing is the minimum health, accident insurance".... But I learned quickly in twi that God blesses folks with good health and accident prevention, anyway. Bottom line, it was/is up to the individual whether they wanted to tithe in twi, or not. It was not a requirement to participate, except in classes in the later years, as you pointed out.

John, you're an intelligent guy so perhaps you can answer this question from a Dummy: If Dr. Wierwille wanted to portray to us folks that all his teachings were received by revelation, and he researched these concepts on all his own independent from others, why did he say in 1972 "lots of the stuff I teach is not original"?

I'm glad you're so happy.

Using your definition of "expected", this is what I know so far: twi didn't/doesn't expect folks to tithe in order to participate in fellowships. They DO expect folks to tithe to participate in classes, as shared by some folks during their experience of the more recent years. You really can't say it was required. Paying the mortgage is required, or you lose the house. Paying the car payment is required, or you lose the car. Paying the grocery bills is required, or you don't eat. Paying the tithe was not required... because folks still got to participate if they didn't do it.

I am a lazy person, I admit that. Especially in this heat. "Roll out those lazy hazy crazy days of summer..."

Expected, yes. Required, no. I liken a "requirement" to something like the paying of dues. If one is a member of a club or association, one may have dues, and if those dues are mandatory, the failure to pay them results in the mandatory cancellation of one's participation.

Are you asking me, huh? :D I don't know, perhaps it was a way of finding out where one's commitment was at? I don't condone it.

Sharon you are a genius. If you love Malamutes and Huskies, Eight Below is your film. :)

I know that. But let's be accurate with our terminology, ok? A requirement is a requirement. If there was a requirement to keep on tithing in order to take some classes in the '90's, then let's use that qualifier and be accurate.

If someone asks for a check instead of cash, and you do it, it doesn't prove much. What proves something, I believe, would be if someone DIDN'T write the check after being asked, and then see if there are any consequences, such as being kicked out of twig, and so forth. No doubt there were some folks in twi that, if you let them push you around, they will gladly.