waysider

Here's one we used to sing in grade school.

Get Together----The Youngbloods The original HERE

The question is really not,"Where is Heaven?" The question is, as I interpret it, "Where did people of ancient/Biblical cultures perceive it to be?". According to Wierwille, via his interpretation of the events of Pentecost, they considered everything above Earth to be Heaven. Is it? Is it not? Irrelevant, IMO. What's relevant is that what Wierwille taught appears to be contradictory with perceptions that were prevalent during the point in time when Acts was written.

Yes, and to you, as well.

I think we would really need to understand a bit more about Acts to answer this question. Things like..... Who wrote it?, when was it written, why was it written?, who was the intended audience?, etc.

We touched on this briefly in Thus Saith Paul. These types of questions need to be answered in a context that acknowledges the chronology of the writings and deals honestly with the concept of inerrancy.

You also said: Ralph didn't do that just to be a jerk; he did it to bless my friend whose feelings were hurt. .............................................................................. Let's put this in perspective, shall we? God didn't give Ralph any sort of "revelation" to do what he did, nor is there any sort of scriptural precedent on which to base this. He simply did something foolish and unbecoming for someone in his position. If you think it "blessed" someone, your sense of values may have become warped. We have all done things that make us wish we could go back in time and have a "do-over". Lord knows, I've had my share. But here's the thing. And it's important. When Ralph saw that what he was involved with was corrupt, he severed his ties with the organization. He has since acknowledged his regrets and offered apologies. Trying to rationalize this incident and give it some sort of "spiritual significance" is a perfect example of how convoluted our ability to think became, my own included. Drawing a parallel to Biblical events is ludicrous at best.

I still don't see how your "F-" story, or wanting to know if I've ever used "the f-word", has any relevance to the concept of "fake it 'til you make it". Maybe you could elaborate a bit more.

If they thought of Heaven as being any old place above Earth, why would they even bother to reference it as "Heaven"? See what I mean? ....."Dude,there was this really rad sound coming from all around us."

What did they stand to lose? They had a sales staff that went where they were told to go, did what they were told to do and worked for 0% commission. That's not trust, that's exploitation.

Relevance?

I agree. It was showboating. Nothing profound or "Godly" about it. However, unlike so many other former leaders, Ralph has come here and offered an apology...don't hold your breath waiting to see that from some of the others.

I never understood that thing. Is it supposed to represent how many times you posted in a day? If so, maybe I should ask this question a few more times.

Get a hold of yourself, man! Surely, there must be a retemory that will help you defeat this fit of rationale. I'm putting you on my lift-list, even as I type. I'm believing for you. Stay en garde. Lo Shanta La Maka See Tay....

We weren't supposed to be individuals. We were supposed to be likeminded. And, if some person or idea tempted us to express our individuality, we were supposed to "STAND!", which is Way-talk for renouncing our critical thinking skills.

What is this "retire" you speak of?

Maybe this is somehow tied to the idea of coming from dust and going back to dust. Dust is carried about by the winds and sometimes reaches amazing altitudes.`Did they, perhaps, envision the dust being carried away to some unseen locale?

Possibly the most practiced ceremony regarding death in our present culture is interment (burial). Contrast this to another popular option, cremation. Sometimes, with cremation, the remains are scattered to the winds. By Wierwille's definition, these people have literally gone to heaven. Likewise, some native American cultures placed their dead high on platforms where the birds of prey could consume them. This was so their spirits would soar through the heavens (plural). That part is open to debate, but, from a literal standpoint, if such a bird consumed a body and then flew through the air, by Wierwille's definition, that person went to heaven. edit I suppose one could argue that being in an aircraft would be considered being in heaven. However, in the scenario involving birds, the person, through the biological processes involved in digestion and absorption, actually becomes a part of the bird, not simply a passenger.

Yes, but the question is... Did "the ancients" consider anything above ground to be Heaven? I think "they" thought of it as being a place...not just any old place, but, a "specific" place. (either physical or spiritual) But, that's just my opinion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeIiVQQ_pMw&feature=related Do not stand at my grave and weep I am not there. I do not sleep. I am a thousand winds that blow. I am the diamond glints on snow. I am the sunlight on ripened grain. I am the gentle autumn rain. When you awaken in the morning's hush I am the swift uplifting rush. Of quiet birds in circled flight. I am the soft stars that shine at night. Do not stand at my grave and cry; I am not there. I did not die. ................Mary Elizabeth Frye

Marrakesh Express----CS&N http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPRLDPfOQwQ Gotta leave for work----free post

Curiosity got the best of me so I googled and youtubed. I must say, I have never heard this song before. I think it must have been popular at a point in time when I was busy drinking RC Cola and eating Moonpies from the Wayside Truck Stop. I didn't have access to a lot of the then-current music scene back then.....cool song, though.

I don't see this as a matter of establishing where God is or isn't. The issue at stake here is where did people of ancient cultures "perceive" God/Heaven to be. "Any place above Earth" just doesn't seem to fit the bill, as far as I can tell.

Psalm 14:2 New Living Translation (NLT) 2 The Lord looks down from heaven on the entire human race; he looks to see if anyone is truly wise, if anyone seeks God. From this verse in Proverbs, we see that people during O.T. times, thought of Heaven as being someplace that was "up" and that God resides there. Otherwise, how could He look "down"? But, does that mean that ANYWHERE that is "up" above Earth is Heaven? I don't see it saying that. It makes it sound more like Heaven is a specific place, like Neptune or Pluto. Both of them are "up" above the Earth's surface but, both occupy specific spacial locations, not just any old place above the Earth. In my opinion, I don't think that people from ancient cultures thought of Heaven as being any place above Earth. I think they thought of it as being a specific location. But, Wierwille's definition, like so many other definitions he propounded, was a very "convenient" way to deal with something that might appear contradictory or, at the very least, unexplainable. That was Wierwille's premise. Everything has to be explainable, has to "fit like a .....", even if he had to fabricate the explanation to make it fit.