waysider

Mike We are not trying to apply these definitions to ancient times. This is a contemporary subject, not a study of generations past. It is pointless to even bring those examples into the discussion. As for "Truth", even "The Word" as we know it is constantly being redefined as new discoveries are being made and new interpretations come to light. Even in TWI, there was an on-going process to refine and redefine the meaning of "The Word".

Unless you have invented some sort of time travel machine and plan to travel back to Biblical times, it seems rather pointless to consider what may or may not have qualified as a cult 1,000's of years ago. What we are looking at is the here and now, our lifetimes. So the question being addressed is "what, in our lifetime, would be considered defining criteria for a cult?" Truth is ever changing and constantly being redefined. It is not an "absolute" as we were led to believe in TWI.

I think it is fairly obvious that John did not intend this to be a black or white, all or nothing set of guidelines. Comparing TWI to this list, we can clearly see that many of the hallmarks that identify a cult were there. Note, also, that a group does not have to have theological underpinnings to practice cult defining behavior. There is a well known motorcycle club that many would consider to be a cult. Wierwille had no special Divine connection. He proved this himself by virtue of his teaching that a true prophet can never be wrong about prophetic matters. He referenced OT scripture to illustrate this. Yet, he was very, very wrong on countless points, not only regarding scripture, but also regarding Godly behavior. edit: Although VPW never declared himself a "prophet", he did present the indentifying criteria as being "one who speaks from or for God--- one who foretells or forth tells." This is presented in the PFAL class. He certainly represented himself to be "one who forth tells".

If "the real deal" came along, I personally doubt that God would encourage them to practice isolationism, hide scandalous behavior, appropriate massive funds for personal gratification, etc., etc., etc.

Claiming to have a Divine connection and actually having one are really not the same thing.

ITT is a "tech school". Different from a community college. At the community college I attended, we used to have nursing students come over from "THE" big state college down the road to take their anatomy & physiology 101 requirements because the classes were much smaller, had better lab sessions than the state school and were regarded to be the better value.

Here's hoping it's a good one!!! HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!

The "freight train" line gave it away for me. That's Can't You See? by Marshall Tucker. I have to leave for work soon so I'm tossing my turn up for grabs. (If I'm correct, that is.)

Maybe this thread would be a more appropriate place to pursue that line of thought: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=18462

My brother-in-law has a PhD in Engineering. (He is a private consultant.) In the 25+ years I have known him, I have never heard anyone call him "Doctor" nor have I ever heard him refer to himself in this manner.

Was Wierwille really concerned with unearthing "The Truth"? Is there any real evidence to suggest so? So far, it's been noted he brought in Bishop Pillai to teach Renewed Mind (not a Biblical concept in the form it is presented in TWI) and Oriental customs as they supposedly related to Biblical times. (Also a subject that bears scrutiny) Any other examples of how he actively sought the assistance of non-TWI people to aid him in his effort to present "The Truth"?

I'm a bit confused by your reference to a "case" I've been tying to make and "documented proof". What exactly do you mean? Perhaps you could start a separate thread to address whatever that might be and keep this one focused on the topic at hand. You posted: and by the way Fellow Laborers was not the topic either but it did not seem to detour you from adding it to the conversation I posted this in response to your statement regarding "guest speakers". Please note that I have asked you to return to the original topic and start another thread. (unless you can show how this extraneous information is relevant to the topic at hand.) BTW---John's comment, that you have deemed off-topic, was clearly not intended to be the focal point of his position on the subject at hand. (IMO)

I certainly agree with you on that point. However, that line of thinking (the tithe being required) is simply not accurate in a Biblical sense. Wierwille held himself out to be a world class authority on Biblical accuracy. (" If it's not right, I'll tell you"---VPW) Either he wasn't the the authority he thought he was or he used common misunderstanding of the subject to satisfy his own agenda. Neither option sheds a favorable light on his work.

The subject of this thread is Tithing & the new Way of Abundance Class. If you want to start a separate thread to discuss the other matters, you are welcome to do so.(IMO)

Smart remarks? Is that what you think this is about? Tithing(quite a different thing than free-will giving) is simply not a requirement of the NT church or the church today. Yet, Wierwille, who promoted himself as being a World Class authority on the Bible, failed to acknowledge that and, instead, insisted it was an absolute debt that was necessary to pay in order to expect any kind of blessing from God. He was wrong. Plain and simple. List 100 speakers if you think it makes your point. It won't change the fact that Wierwille distorted the true meaning of the tithe in a way that would work to his material benefit.

That's it??? Bishop Pillai on "Orientalisms" and "The Renewed Mind??? Doesn't sound like a very extensive list to me. Maybe Pillai should have enlightened him on the real history and meaning of tithing, eh?

Such as---?

Are there any SNS tapes that feature these speakers?

It Ain't The Meat It's The Motion

Eric Burdon

It's very important to realize that the people at the grass roots level, down in the trenches, going to local "twigs" are people just like you and me. Some of my fondest memories of TWI (The Way International) revolve around relationships I had with genuinely sincere people at the local level. But, the way TWI was structured, it was simply not acceptable to settle for status-quo. You had to be on an endless quest to reach the unattainable through a series of classes (which cost money), training programs (which cost money ++) and ABS (abundant sharing). [Abundant sharing, in a nut shell, means you give a minimum of 15% of your gross income to "The Ministry".] Ever heard the analogy of "the frog in the pot"? If you put a frog in a pot of water that is room temperature, it will swim about happily without concern. But, if you very slowly turn up the fire under the pot, the frog won't notice until it's too late for him to avoid being cooked. That's how TWI works. They count on the goodness of local "believers" to keep the pot at room temperature.

I have been out of the way for several years so my info. may be dated. The term "twig" is no longer used. They are now called "household fellowships". (Same product, new name.) Regarding the other matter: The Way teaches that "soul life" starts with the first breath and ends with the last. Hence, according to TWI theology, a baby is not "alive" until it takes its first breath. I don't know if they would directly advise her to have an abortion but their theology supports the concept. This is the sort of thing that would be best discussed with her directly. edited to note that I didn't see RumRunners response before I posted.

Steph The Way is/was structured like a tree. Each individual is a "leaf". Several leaves(3 or more) comprise a "twig". They typically meet in private homes. If you have several twigs in a geographic area, such as a city, they , combined, are called a "branch". All the branches in a statewide area, combined, are called a "limb". A country is a"Trunk". The "root" is the headquarters facility(HQ), which is located in New Knoxville, Ohio. Nourishment for the tree (ie:cash) travels from the "leaves" to the "root". However, it never follows a return route. Thus, the tree analogy is quite flawed. In other words, it's really a "pyramid scheme", sometimes referred to as "multi-level-marketing".(MLM) Here is a link to some vital information regarding the founder of The Way, "Dr." Victor Paul Wierwille. (He wasn't really a "Dr.") It may all seem insignificant to someone not familiar with The Way. To those who have been involved for any length of time, however, it may seem to be quite a shock. http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/vp_DEATH.htm

Here is the ultimate "Then & Now". It's world renown harmonica player, Jason Ricci. It shows what practice and commitment can accomplish. And, to illustrate what a down to Earth guy Jason is, note that he, himself, posted this on youtube. THEN NOW

I'm gonna kick myself for not recognizing what most likely is a Blues tune.