now I see

Yeah, several times, it's the bible for instructors, William also posthumously published a few years ago from his father's works, "America from the Air", a two part book which captures a bygone era of early aviation and also is the prolog to Stick and Rudder, being more readable for the student pilot or nonaviator, a must read also. Hey, William wrote a good article for Vanity Fair on the precident setting Amazonian mid-air between the Legacy and 737, Click Here He's the master of laying out complex events in laymans terms, unemotionally, while drawing metaphorical parallels to living in the world we inhabit. His past writings on the Columbia disaster, EgyptAir 990 and the Value Jet crash were equally good, you should check them out too if you haven't already.

I think a good portion of the "discernment" from twi leaders was discernment from the dark side-broadcast and ministered to their audiences. Many extwi leaders were one trick ponies and never broke the chain from their former teachers.

Has anyone done any research regarding Albert Cliffe? Is the reference there because of examples being used from Cliiffe illustrating dark practices or did vpee use him for a christian doctrine source?

How vicious of him, it's surprising how he became so corrupt and bereft of the love of God and the love Jesus illustrated, LCM became the antithesis of Godly thought and actions, and it's a wonder people didn't stand up and walk out on him when he delivered these abominations. These types of diatribes from LCM were totally unacceptable behavior from someone who claimed he was a christian minister and for that matter, from any christian in general.

Jim, thanks for the link, good article, spatial disorientation can be a killer. Here's a good article on spatial disorientation by William Langewiesche: The Turn

Disabled? Really? How could he possibly be threatened by disabled people? He must have forgotten about the many Jesus healed.

Even in the late '80's LCM was on the prowl for 'weak' Corps and problem believers, but unless you knew the individual or the family, you would have had no idea these things were going on.

I think people's reactions depended on their mindset at the time. There were some involved with and also those leading these facemeltings and M & A sessions who had a certain inflated sense of their own righteousness who felt they were doing the Lord's work in purging unclean members who didn't measure up to their spiritual yardstick. I have even spoken to certain of these people decades later, and they still think they were right and speak disparagingly regarding the victim. Twi facilitated gossipy conniver manipulative type people and their ladder climbing minions, especially if they had the ear of a leader, the poor naive person they centered their sights on didn't stand a chance. There were also many who unquestioningly mimicked, followed lockstep behind, and approved of whatever the leaders deemed as being right-on spiritually. Many times believers, who never showed any tangible signs of being "possessed" (or spiritually dark or lazy or having problems...ad infinitum) could be M & A'd by these leaders, without any objections being raised by anyone else. People were trained not to question leaders as to the why's and wherefores, and to believe in their leader's heightened sense of spirituality and discernment, so whatever the leader said about the victim was believed and was counted as spiritually right..it was like the Jedi mind trick, case closed, and move along, there's nothing to see here.

Steve, I looked up the artist who did the Big Man sculpture, his name is Ron Mueck and he does some incredibley life like works, some which are gigantic but perfectly real looking....click on the url here to see these sculptures http://www.metacafe.com/watch/816457/ron_m...alist_sculptor/ Simply amazing, thanks for posting that pic.

Congrats Raf, thanks for sharing your good news with us!

Considering how hard it is for hardcore sexual addicts, predators, and swingers to change their habits, I doubt if he would be able to mainstream himself in regards to any religeous affiliation, with the exception of the Children of God cult or some sort of sex cult. Considering how hard it is for homosexuals to change their sexual proclivities, it would be hard for him to do likewise, sort of ironic in that respect considering his homophobic tirades. He never seemed to be a tower of restraint in any aspect of his life before, he is certainly profoundly mentally and emotionally screwed up, although if he does come to his senses there is help for him through professional psychiatry.

I wouldn't trust anyone's "research" who still follows that old gasbag vpee's teachings or anyone who is still in one of the vp worshipping offshoots. Just because vpee anointed someone with a title and a job doesn't mean what they've researched is valid, I would lean more toward it being bereft of any legitimacy. A little leaven leaveneth...

Ha! That would be a laugh, I would go just to mock him!

Raf, If you'd like to keep the dog, look into Cesar Millan's Dog Whisperer techniques. Here's an article Dog Whisperer article from his website. video from National Geographic tv series-Dog Whisperer

Swingin clues Steve! So what is better, looking at the clue of poo or the hairless naked guy?

I vote Steve too!

:) Good one! As Dick Clarke used to say, "It has a beat and you can dance to it!"

Themex, about the numbers of the offshoots, the last I checked with the geerite one, he was eliminating his contracted authorized class instructors due to their not measuring up, and there were many fellowships with stagnant numbers. The only ones that were doing well had a teen outreach or young twenty-somethings leading the way.

About 2 weeks ago, while reading some of the GS archives, I too found out that Martindale declared the word was over the world in the 90's, I hadn't ever read that before, it actually made me laugh and spew my coffee over my computer screen when I read it. In my opinion, he did that so he could impose his mark on twi and establish his own regime, leaving vpee's legacy behind...it was more about eliminating any traces of vpee worship. It also enabled him to cancel the ROA cleanly, and the WOW program too. In light of his tirades of disgust with the teen sex he believed was rampant in the former ROA years and his lunatic homophobia, he probably reasoned the close of these two problem oriented programs did god a favor and stopped the adversary from infecting the ministry. It also ushered in more autocratic controll for himself over the ministry and established a way he could implement further indiscriminate cleansings of the household. Here is a post of the chronology of the times from HopeR that sheds light on his regime: TWI 3 & 4

Ha! Hiway's got your number TLB! You are both correct!!! Congrats!!! :lol: :P

Yeah, we are, I see a furry thing, and Barack, looks weird to see a cig hanging outa his mouth. Does anyone know what the furry thing is?

Don'tWorry, thanks for answering those questions, it's amazing how much we were all bewitched by him and talked ourselves out of questioning what we were fed. It is also surprising that Walter went to that infamous trip to Germany to view the early texts to prove what vpee already decided what the scriptures should mean, which is in direct contradiction to how vpee said we were to aproach the scriptures according to the Piffle class. It also shows that Walter had no integrity in the research realm and in regards to doing vpee's bidding. In reality, the greatest secret in the whole world was how vpee came up with his research. :) The closer you look at vpee and his life's work, the more distorted, cracked and perverted the picture becomes. The copywrite laws of today have penalties for infringement, I wonder if that ever crossed Donna's or anyone else's minds at the time? From what I recall, Chris Ge*r also used vpee's people when he was posthumously editing vpee's "writings" and doing his own "research" for his own books, publications, and classes. I can't recall exactly, but I do recall it was either Donna or Bernita or both, and Walter who also helped geer with his research too. Sure puts a new light on anything Geer produced(s) labeled as "research", no wonder he also instructed his followers concerning the evils of the computer and the internet, wouldn't want people to put two and two together. I remember hearing an old SNS tape where either uncle Harry or Rueben was speaking, and I remeber thinking how different vpee sounded from his brothers, the locals, and even from HA... vpee's syntax, diction and speech were far more polished and less rural, he certainly could fake his abilities through his personal charisma and homeletics training and education, he certainly did a good job in selling us his version of snake oil. Thanks for replying DWBH, and for sharing your unique perspective...

It's not Maveric, but was on tv about the same time. "She handed me a big old sugar cookie, looked at me and said, "if you had a choice between that cookie and me, which one would you take?"...that's when I found out just how fast she was! I had to run nearly a mile to get away from her with that cookie!" "[Disgusted] Son, some day me and you got to have a long talk." ...... "I need a partner who will come into Honeymoon Lane with me. I have the license, and I have the heavy equipment." "Well, ma'am, them's the kinda things a man likes to find out fer himself." ..... "If brains was lard, that boy wouldn't have enough to grease a skillet." ... "Boy, I'm gonna give you 24 hours to clean up all this mess." "Aw come on, I'm gonna clean up. I'm gonna set this world on fire! " "You're gonna clean up alright. Everything. Or you're gonna end up with the seat of your britches on fire." ..... " Now, Chief, in all fairness to the employees, you do not display much holiday spirit." "What do they want from me? I gave them half a day off on Christmas!"

"She handed me a big old sugar cookie, looked at me and said, "if you had a choice between that cookie and me, which one would you take?"...that's when I found out just how fast she was! I had to run nearly a mile to get away from her with that cookie!" "[Disgusted] Son, some day me and you got to have a long talk." ...... "I need a partner who will come into Honeymoon Lane with me. I have the license, and I have the heavy equipment." "Well, ma'am, them's the kinda things a man likes to find out fer himself." ..... "If brains was lard, that boy wouldn't have enough to grease a skillet."

Don'tWorry, I hope you're still lurking, I have a few questions regarding your post on pg #16....I just read it today, as I haven't been following this thread...you said: Does this mean Rhoda and Donna were complicit in assisting vpee with the plagerism, were they both in on it? I don't know if its ever been discussed here, but how much did either of them know what was really going on behind the scenes, wasn't Rhoda married to uncle Harry? Were others aware of the plagerism or did they just think vpee was continueing the work? This is so ironic considering vpee would have a cow when he spoke of how the young people were lazy in this way or that way, and how he bragged he could out shovel any young person because he knew how to work, man, he always had to be on top. I even heard this story out on the field! Thanks DWBH! Raf, that has to be the absolute best, most logical line I've ever read in regards to vpee being a MOG!