now I see

Please excuse my ignorance, but is there any way those who'd like to launch a coup would try to get the Big Forehead back into power? Could it be done? Or is he permanently banished? :unsure:

Ok, how bout this example, if someone kidnapped your sister and sexually abused her, would you be so ready to listen to how he was such an upstanding citizen? Wouldn't the upstanding part be obbliterated by the kidnapping and abuse part? Were not we captivated by such a one, and were not some of our sisters abused?

It wouldn't surprise me, Jimmy Do*p and the believers were all over Oakland at the time, the Word was really moving back then.

Sounds like it was all a big Boys Club.

Danny, was the bus driver Chuck?

About 10 years ago I watched the whole Piffle class on DVD and watched a few sessions of the Adv class on DVD. There are people that have everything, all the classes retro fitted to today's media, in the form of DVD's! I think at the time there were those in charge of bookstores and had Limb access to all materials and classes who might have copied everything when the ministry started firing people like limb coordinators. It's out there if you want it, the problem is I don't want it anymore. Before Geer launched WIGP, I know that anyone who wanted their area to have a PFAL type class, had to teach it themselves, and in those days, from '88 to about '92 or so, no taped or video class was around or authorized, for those who were dearly departed from der Vey. So, most just reworked the class and taught it themselves at the twig or branch level, in some states the whole limb and WC got fired all at once, so the structure stayed pretty much intact with few changes. For the Geer group, some Pfal sections were reworked in light of Geer's research conducted at Gartmore and with the old TWI research staff and heavy hitters such as Bernita, Walter, Townsend etc, that had left the ministry. The new Gartmore research was dispersed to the USA through Geer's tapes, or visits to Gartmore, but what was re-taught through these live classes was basically the same stuff, same old Pfal. That is what happened right after, I think since Geere's group was formed so early, I don't think anyone bothered to question the validity of Vp's research, also Geer was fanatically loyal to him. Funny thing is, the followers still don't question their loyalty to Geer or the body of the work, they have no clue it originated from BG Leonard and have no knowledge of plagerism, nor do they want to hear about it. Pretty complete deception I'd say.

Hey Ex10, I didn't mean to infer that Chris Geer was backstage at Adv class '79, just that he was in the running for "top positon" status, what I was meaning was more that he was in the group of men vying for the job, tht they all were very competetive about it. The person I heard it from was backstage at that event, and remarked how competitive it really was. Of course not being in contention myself, I was oblivious to the rivalry that apparently existed, and pretty amazed that it boiled down to a competition, pretty carnal. Tonto, I seem to recall that Robert Duv*l took the foundational class back in the day, maybe that's where he got his inspiration to write the screenplay for "The Apostle" and to star in the role. I wouldn't be suprised.

Dot, Was "did vp start out bad or become bad" on GS or on Waydale? If it was here, do you have a link? If it was Waydale did you save it and can you post it?

Tomstrange, Your post above to Anotherdan hit the nail on the head, I have no problem with his opinions about VP, but what I do have the problem with is his character assasinations and biting passive agressive comentary on others and their motivations. His posts remind me of a few others here who post after the same manner. I for one found Sunesis' original post extremely insightful and delivering, it filled in the missing pieces in the puzzle that has been perplexing me and gnawing at my insides for some time now, info that I never would have known otherwise. I am grateful for what was posted. If it were not for GS I would have continued imprisoned in that TWI dreamland state of limbo, never understanding the why's and never getting the resolution and closure to what I have invested the last 31 years of my life into. I'd say what goes on here at GS means a lot to me.

Just read your next comment, you offend me, you are insufferable in your ignorance, I am done with argueing with you, thanks for derailing this thread.

Hey Another, I just read your post stating you think I was starting rumors, I'm not, my sources are: 1) A 3rd Corps person sent on the field in '78 from a life at HQ's for the very reason I stated; I got the info from their own mouth, plus it was substanciated by others. 2) I read that info here, from a reliable source, someone who eye witnessed it. 3) I only backed down because I did not want to reveal my source, but since you are accusing me of rumor mongering, the source was from someone at the Trustee level at TWI, who had at least the same status as Geer probably more, who does have an inflated ego of himself, but I do believe it was accurate. No rumors here, just didn't tell all I knew.

Hey Another Dan, you should be thankful that VP was not into sex with other men and decided to drug you and rape you, then discredit you and sent you off into your own private hell of shame and condemnation, friendless, with no means of support. I believe that very thing has happened to some of "sisters" here. Maybe if that had happened to you, you might feel differently about this topic. Could you imagine being a shy, soft hearted woman and these things happening to you, how quickly would you get over it, if ever. Maybe the good of the few, outweighs the benefits toward the image of the organization of TWI and VP, the perpetrator, in contrast to whatever logic you seem to apply here in efforts to silence and censure us, but instead you scold and mock us! If there was no deceit there would be no reason to unveil it here. How dare you claim we here are being judgmental when some of hearts were ripped out because of the way we were treated or from things done to us. Shame on you! Some of us have been carrying burdens for almost 20 years, you should consider yourself lucky you are not named among them, rather, you should do all you can to shepherd and heal the flock. How smug you are to think that what you experienced and feel is what everyone else has, how convenient for you. Don't be throwing God's name or scriptures around until you comprehend and understand what God's heart for an individual really is, the people here are God's, they deserve answers and the truth.

You know those of us who never interacted with VP or who were able to observe his actions away from the podium spotlight, only saw a one dimentional side of him, his public persona. We never saw the dichotomy of his Jekle and Hyde personality and actions. We would not be able to make a judgment on his fruit since the only fruit we ever saw was veiled and wrapped in the coating of the scriptures, a charismatic orator and salesman marketer. We never saw his "bad" fruit ever, or could link any directly to him. It muddies the waters to not know this information in formulating anything other than a positive judgement on his ministry. Plus, we were fed and swallowed his version of how the ministry started, we thought it came from him. Perverted our judgemnt it did. I once worked for a narcissistic boss who was also a sociopath that would often tell us "I wish I were the man I know to be" stories about himself so that we could feel sorry for him, give him empathy and warm brotherhood fraternal feelings. At the time, I wondered how two such different personalities could reside in the same man. But it was a planned design to manipulate the employees to get them to do what he wanted, he was a master at motivating people's loyalty to himself-when in reality he was a con artist-someone who had actually run a prostitute ringfrom his house and who had been an exotic dancer himself-involved with a shady lifestyle and questionable business practices. He would stop at nothing to further his own career, and would often "buy" the aligence of coworkers for the cost of luch on him for the day. Anyone who wasn't useful to him or called him out was maligned and run out. Sounds a lot like the tactics doc vic employeed on us. No wonder it was told that in '78 the 3rd Corps and other HQ lifers were sent out on the field for a year and kicked out of headquarters cause they were "too negative against Vp and had gotten too used to the HQ 'lifestyle' ", as it was said to me, I really didn't understand how that could happen at the time, but now I do. I wonder how crusty and cynical the people-leadership around him became as they tried to imitate him or live in the liberty that he espoused. I also read somewhere that Vp was taking a draw close to a million bucks a year as salery, I wonder if that's true too.

I just heard from an old friend that goes to a Geer fellowship that he's started sending out SNS type weekly Cd's again, for a charge of course. This Geerite follower also claims that he has reworked the class and WIGP is not the same as PFAL, of course all the "bad" stuff from PFAL was taken out, doncha know he reworked "believing"? My opinion is-new wine into old wineskins, and I agree Geer has changed some things but I'm not so sure he's repented, (although there is no way for me to know because he doesn't address these issues, VP's or TWI's issues, especially with the "little people") and I think the VP reverence is still alive there, and Geer's class is based on the same formulaic strucure.

Well, I was told that from someone who'd been in the running for the job, and who'd been backstage at that event, they could have said that to me just to inflate their own ego.....which is something they were good at...they learned it from the best.

Hadn't there been a huge power strugle amongst the "top" men before Craig was given the Grand Poobah job? Wasn't it between Geer, the Forehead, and others? Hadn't there been a huge jockeying for position durring the Advance Class '79 between all the contenders backstage, falling all over themselves to prove they should be the next MOG? As far as Geer's devotion to VP goes, I had heard in residence that Geer had listened to every SNS and recorded teaching in the Emporia and TWI library that VP had ever taught, and had taken detailed notes on each-very devoted to VP...probably in the worship category. Thanks, Sunesis for what you posted in the begining of this thread, it made me cry...and has given me the "sunesis" on the matter that I needed. I hate the secrecy, the veil that was established by VP and his conspirers to keep the truth-the reality of what it really was about-from the rest of us. I feel bad for all of us, thinking we were so spiritual and thinking all the leadership was sooo spiritual and our "tupos" of how we should be, and being duped by him, the others, and the organization.

COOL video Rhino!!! The only thing I would add is that she should have drug the body inside to prove she was in mortal danger, or should have let him break in and go after her before she let him have it!!! Self defense!

I'm curious, who here thinks VPW was a false prophet and why? And if you don't think so, why do you think he was a good minister?

I think you are right, Socks, about the copyrights of the Way of Great Britain, and I think they still have them and are still a viable entity. Chris Geer also branched off into Word Promotions while at Gartmore, but there was some sort of disagreement there too, and Geer was either forced out or decided to leave. I don't believe he retained copyrights to what he produced there either. It's kind of fuzzy now in my memory, it's been so long since I've thought about it. I have heard some say that Howard Allen would never allow the PFAL class and books copyright to ever be sold or shared with others while he was alive. In my opinion it would be better for those people who still want to exalt VP's works to just go out and buy BG Leonard's, Bullinger's, Je Stiles, and Kenyon's works, and get the research from those who actually did it, rather than raising up the VP altar. It just propetuates his error. It is bad enough that so many splinter groups are still basing their ministries entirely on the basis of VPW's works. There are none so blind as those who cannot see.....

Dot, if your gun recoil is hurting your hand, how are you placing your hands around the gun? I prefer holding the grip by my right hand and cupping the underside of the gun and right hand with my left. Also, if you are not pushing the gun away from you with your right hand while firing and if you grip is not strong and ridgid, you'll experience a stronger recoil and some guns will even jam because of this. Very firm gripping of the gun while activiely pushing it away from you with your trigger hand while shooting usually minimizes recoil impact. There are a lot of training schools out there that will help you improve your shooting abilities, good shooting ability requires some outside instruction, in my area there are specific women only classes that will add to your knowledge, they are from 4-12 hours usually. And...the avatar is the girl, Trinity, from The Matrix shooting a Beretta with a kitten coming out instead of a bullet. Maybe I should get a sharper resolution of it so you can tell it's a kitten and not an angel. By the way, my Beretta is my favorite gun in my collection.

One of the greatest deterrent to someone who's broken into your house while you're there is the sound of a shotgun cocking. Bar none, the sound gives a loud warning before any fight is enganged. If they're not in the same room as you, it's a good way to chase them out of the house. In my opinion, Pond is way out of line with his comments, he is probably not a woman, and has some sort of axe to grind for whatever reason, he comments are suspiciously defensive. Also, almost every female roomate or good friend I've ever had has been raped, and I could venture a guess that most all women in the USA have had an unwanted sexual advance or assault in their past, and perhaps assaults on young female children have been increasing as well. And actually, pedifilia has gotten so bad in this country, more young boys are vicitimized than ever before, not only the rape of boys but male rape victims in general has increased exponentially.

I think this stuff, Lonnie's story, the Jesus Movement, the music, is all so relavent to all of us here at GS as well as to everyone who's ever stepped foot on TWI grounds, came to fellowship, or was even witnessed to by a TWI follower. Lonnie started his ministry at the House of Acts where Steve Heefn*r and Jimmy Do*p were already in full swing in their mininstries. Because of these men's stands, and their wife's, the increase happened in TWI, whithout Heefn*r and Do*p, there would never have been more than the handful of older people WPW had taken from his Van Wert church to TWI. By the six degrees of separation theory, we all can probably trace our coming to TWI thru Heefn*r or Do*p. There is not much information out there about this period of time to show us the way it was and maybe how it should have been. David Di Sabatino has made a way for us to see a bit of it, to honor those who've gone before us, and to make sure the historical information doesn't get burried by the wieght of time. The music is still relevant, Lonnie's message is still relevant. It is ironic that the only ministries I see flourishing from any of the offshoots from TWI are the ones that have a focus on the young people, teenagers and the under 25 generation, where the young people are in charge and running the show.

Do a search on the web, and any local and state government regulatory agencies that moniter those facilities. Call a social worker, or if the person is already hospitalized, you can use the social services at the hospital to help direct you to the right facility or placement proffessional. The placement finders get a commission for placements, most really know the good from the bad, although if you find the facility yourself, it can save you hundreds or tho usands a month in fees.

If people are having trouble seein that VPW embodied the capacity for both good and evil, just look at OJ simpson, even Oj wants to be loved, he's had many girlfriends since the trial, even though he is what he is. VPW maybe didn't have as many kills as Hitler, but he and his successor henchmen were both directly or indirectly responsible for deaths and abortions in der Vey, of Corps and others, many who've been discussed here, plus he had a direct hand in the death of the evangelism of Doop and Heefner's ministries in what he did to the Way West and East. Of which he will be delt with by God himself. What is worse? Hitler or Verwille? God will be the judge, depends on what's important to God?

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