now I see

Since it's a matter of public record, who exactly is being sued by whom?

I do believe I read somehwere that Martin Luther, who posted the 95 Thesus on the door of the Catholic Church, suffered from depression and severe bouts of illness at times. Definitely a man with whom God worked within.

A speghetti recipe as a metaphore for being loving to all in the fold, great stuff and good recipe :B) !

Wow, all these recipes soud great! I like to make split pea soup in the crock pot. I put in a bag of split peas, a ham hock, or ham bone, or chopped ham in, cut up carrots, celery, and onions, a little old bay seasoning, thyme, vegie salt, and few dashes of tobasco sauce, and then add water till it's about 3 inches from the top. It makes the best soup!

Wow, I didn't know it was associated with CFF, I wonder if any GSers have checked it out?

There is a believer named Sangat Baines from the 17th Corps that is working many miracles in India like the one in the jubbapour story, he seems to be doing some great things. Has anyone here got some knowledge on what he's doing or have read any of his booklets on healing or other subjects?

Oenophile, Jeez, put your six guns down and re-read what I said, you misinterpreted my meaning. I said: I said “EVEN” vpw spoke of casting out spirits being in the category of healing and was not supposed to be used to club someone over the head with….in opposition to blanket statements declaring that depression is possession while establishing an air of intimidation and of the wearing of a scarlet letter. vpw was wrong on a lot of things, but even he got that right. Get it? And, he also spoke of sickness being organic (natural), or can have spiritual cause. How is it that people in the old twi never remembered those things and there are some that still don’t, people are still elevating spirit worship and carnality above service, love, peace kindness, gentleness etc. People did and are still, as we see in the latest happenings in CES, globbing on to the absolute worst way of thinking regarding people and caring for them. That used to irritate me to no end in twi days. I would always remind those who ignorantly jumped to the wrong, fleshy, carnal, lockstep, knee jerk reaction of, “they must be possessed” by repeating what I wrote above about what vpw said because they would conveniently forget that part and quote me something from some vpw class that would substanciate their point of view, and insist they were right ! It still amazes me that people pick out what’s expedient for them and use what they say is God’s Word as a projectile to wound others. How do some read the same bible I do and not see the heart behind it? And lastly, it doesn’t matter who said it, whether it was vp or not. Believe me, it makes me sick to think of how vpw harvested us and sifted us as wheat and took us all away from our true course. Sadly, no, I actually do remember that.

Ok, now I'm confused, was this John Shroyer's wife, the ones who lead CFF or is it their son's corn fed wife who spoke at the ROA big top tent one year on how she loved (worshipped) the Royals (the royal family) in Brittan? Even vpw spoke on casting out of devil spirits being in the category of healing, and not used to club someone over the head with. Anything in the sickness category, even depression, can be either organic or spiritual, how come no one ever remembers that?

Estimated, How is it that what you're saying just sounds like a mass of rationalizations?

I consider wierwille The Great Hijacker. He hijaked power for abundant living from another mans work and basically just renamed it and gave no credit to the originator, BG Leonard, but rather plagerized him and others, and then he Hijaacked a ministry from Doop and Heefner. It was pretty slick, I don't know how much of God was behind all that, his methods aren't indicative of an honest individual. Didn't he get kicked out of his denomination cause he got his secretary pregnant?

Similar to what the original poster said, I too found in TWI and in some of the splinter groups that there was no end to others bearing false witness against eachother under the guise of informing the leadership of a "problem" they were having with a houselhold member who needed to be confronted, tagged, and watched-much like the scenario that E. Lynn went thru. Most of this was born on the wings of competition between believers, a desire to be worshiped as men and elevate oneself above others in status, and a tendency to play favorites and have cliques; a pack like mentality amongst a psuedo christian setting. Definitely a missunderstanding of what love is, of what forgiveness of 70 times 7 is, of what a brother/sister in christ is. All of which taught very bad lessons in how to love and serve one another, and who our Heavenly Father is. In the end, history will repeat itself if each individual fails to learn the lessons of TWI....of what it is not.

Dittos.... The fruit tells the story.

Estimated, I find what was done to Elizabeth Lynn exceptionally grievous and disturbing. It reminds me so much of how chosen "lower rung believers" or those whom had been marked, for whatever reason, were shredded and thrown into the spin cycle by "elders" of TWI, some of which I was a personal witness to back in the day. I do not believe there would ever be compensation enough in this life, to rectify what has been done to this woman. And why was this done to her, because someone in a position of responsibility had an elevated viewpoint of themselves, thought their stuff don’t stink, took their own personal sense of righteousness to a obtuse unmeek level, was jealous, was threatened, wanted John Lynn job, perhaps for one or all of these reasons, and the rest of you followed her down the same path and even chose to actively conspire against an innocent one. None of these actions, thoughts and behaviors are remotely right, moral or a characteristic of a elder biblically. Let alone this personal vendetta war was waged, conducted and endorsed in the name of God. Look, I don’t want to beat up on you personally, this is not just directed at you, but regarding the practice of personal prophecy, something obviously wasn’t practiced in the holy spirit or in truth and light-spiritually. You all will have to have the humility of David to be able to look at this practice dead in the face and determine that you missed the mark, that you made a series of bad decisions which brought you to the place of practicing such error. Frankly, all I have seen so far is the humility of Saul, who never did get over his problems with the Lord or with David. Saul, who saw light, on and off through the years, but for the most part never regained his standing with the Lord-which led to his ultimate destruction in misery. I understand that those of you who originally “bought in” to the idea of this practice have a lot invested in it, your personal reputations, your personal ministry, the public promotion of the error of the doctrine surrounding this practice and theology, hours and hours of research and teaching, the time and years involved, the burden of the weight of the responsibility you have to the household, the leading of so many down this path, your whole basis of why you feel you were right, the basis by which you have made so many decisions. I understand that this is monumental, but really, there was obviously a problem in what you were doing that you were not aware of until others pointed it out to you. Please take heed to the biblical guidance that has been offered here thus far. Who do you wanna be like, Saul or David? God bless you, You are always welcome at the bema.

Wow, I just read all the letters concerning the CES problem, and all I can say is wow, they really messed up. I've been away from this board for a few months and didn't know all this was going on and how bad it is over there. They've really gone comando with this dream/vision interpretation and personal prophecy thing. I'm sure Mark Sanguinetti was not the only voice of reason they have heard, too bad they didn't harken to it. Reading Elizabeth's letter smacks of all the tactics used by TWI heavy handed cronies, same fear tactics, same smear campaigns, same mark and avoid of those labeled with spirits. No new thing under the sun. Very sad indeed. I feel sorry for all those who jumped from one sinking ship to another, to meet with what appears to be, the same fate after all these years. Geez, no wonder the whole freakin generation of those stiffnecked children of Israel had to die off before Moses could lead them to the promised land, when will they ever learn?

I read somewhere when VP first got Doop, Heefner, Wise, Frisbee and Martin together that he performed some signs/wonders/miracles for them, and taught them about "the manifestations" and that's what got their attention. I wonder if anyone can corraborate this information as being true or false? Anyone know?

Thanks Ex how are you? It looks like it will be showing again on PBS in the bay area, I'm supposed to be out there next week, if I get a chance to watch, I'll post a review.

Potato, My sentiments exactly, it's gonna take some time and some work. Hey, do You realize you're member #2109, and I'm member #2110? It also looks like we joined the same day. ;)

Part of the problem is that deer are migratory animals they don't necessarily stay in the same locations year round. Man made boundaries such as buildings, houses, schools, fences, and roads can block or intersect migratory paths that have been established among deer herds for hundreds, if not thousands of years. No matter how many deer, they will move when the seasons change, and use these established paths, just like fish return to the waters of their birth to spawn. Also, any water source near the road will also attract deer. Get some deer whistles for your car they really help, look for movement and breaks in the light at the far end of the road at the farthest edge of the light of your headlamp beams.

I also bought the Stiles book about 2 weeks ago from amazon, there's still a few left there, if anyone else is interested. Yes, it is a carbon copy of what we were taught by VP, even the cadence of the book is familiar. I also bought a few other books by bullinger for comparison, and a copy of the House of Acts. It makes me wonder what would have happened if VP never went to California and recruited Jimmy Do*p and Steve He*fner. I wonder how much further the Word could have moved with just God backing them, rather than VP. I wonder what their ministries were like, how their ministries worked, how they were so succesfull, before Wierwille injected himself into their ministies. I feel that so much of what I've learned thru twi was so tainted by Wierwille's slant, his egotism, his hatered of women, blacks, jews, organized religion, his drambuie revelations, his lusts, and his self amassed conglomeration of teachings plagerized from other's works. I don't even trust my own knowledge of what I thought I knew the Word to mean. Which really sucks.... But I still want to know the truth, I still want a relationship with God....I just wish I had opened my eyes sooner.

Uh, Con...er, Conner...Ron, Con job Ron? Whatever. Uh, what is the proof of the arrest, where was he supposed to have done it and who'd you hear it from? We've never heard anything from any other poster that substanciates these alegations, cough up your sources, please.

This same poster has the habit of posting unsubstaniated claims, I'd like to see the proof.

I dunno, this person writes some weird stuff, looks like there might be some elaborations... ??????

In business, especially in the larger corporate environs which I've been a part of, the temperature and state of the office is usually dictated by the CEO. Either the CEO in the local office or the CEO of the corporate HQs. I have noticed the corruption, the controll, or lack thereof, gets passed down from the surrounding execs down the chain to the grunt worker, but it always starts or stops at the top. Especially in our little Way Int'l "household" group, the pack mentality ruled at HQ, and consequently filtered down. From eyewitness testimonies of personal friends and from testimonies in this forum, it seems VP fostered a very competitive and also a very conforming environment amongst the top leadership. I do think it trickled down, a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. What's that verse? For if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought. . .

No one believed the stories of abuse from the twi before '86 either. Even when victims and eye witnesses spoke up. Just because an individuals experience with the perpatraitor is good doesn't meean that person isn't acting another way with others. Burrying your head in the sand and saying it couldn't happen, just because it hasn't happened to you is no guarentee that what the poster is saying is not true.

The pride and arrogance that krept into the ministry (maybe it was always there from the start) was pervasive, especially in Martindale. It corrupted the doctrine we learned, the way we behaved, the way we spoke to others about the gospell, the way we spoke in general. I have shared some of my way views of scripture, and often get the comment of "arrogant" about them. No surprise bout that. There is no secret bout where it came from. Or I should say, the greatest secret in the world today is...a little leaven leveneth the whole lump. I remember being at a mountain advance where LCM came at the last days to teach, it was in the late '70's I think, I believe region leaders were there too. Durring a meal in the lodge, the staff that worked for the resort came out crying and proceeded to reprove us. They told us that we were the worst bunch of christians they had ever seen, that they had never been treated so poorly, nor had so many rude demands from us, the likes of which they'd never seen before. We all sat there with our mouths open, dumbfounded, most of us had no clue what had transpired. It had to have been Martindal, I wished I had seen it for the barometer it was of how far downhill the ministry had gone. Pride goeth before a fall.....