now I see

I don't know if "comfortable" is what ole vp intended, maybe those familiar with Stiles and Leonard"s ways of leading into tongues might be able to shed some light on it to see if vp "borrowed" fluency by excellors sessions from them. I never did SIT at the 12th session, it was too much in your face and too many people around for me. I did SIT that night at home alone with God though, it was as fluent that first night as it is today. I never thought of excellers sessions, after the fact, as something I personally needed, I did see others struggling with SIT though. I always attributed that to the individual being unsure of themselves or unsure in the faith. When I've lead others into tongues without a class, the excellers part was used to make the receiver more comfortable and more familiar with speaking in tongues in general, sort of created some momentum toward them doing it themselves.

I know that while we were involved with TWI many of us were extreemly driven and pressured toward outreach; witnessing, holding fellowships, moving about the country... maybe even compulsively or by constriction we dutifully performed. Did TWI kill the desire in you to share the gospell?

Excie, I had the same question myself, since he was so reprobate, I questioned it too. It stands to reason though that if we all learned from him, he should have been able to do it too. Although I'm not so sure that we operated interpretation the way we should have.

Wondering about Ray Slovinski, lost track of him after he graduated from the 15th Corps. I believe he got married to someone in his old WOW family and they got assigned to Manhatten Kansas??? I think he originated from Michigan? Anyone know where he went after Kansas?

Another Dan, Your shrimp sounds very good!!! I make a similar shrimp dish, the method is the same as yours except I saute the shrimp in the butter with lots of cayenne pepper and regular pepper, some salt, and a few squeezes of lemon juice. They're peel n' eat like yours, and we dip the french bread in the leftover butter mix and then in some sour cream to cool the heat of the cayenne. It is soooo goood!! Cheers!

Outfiled, Do you make a roux for your pot roast? How'd it turn out? Here's my favorite recipe for slow cooker pot roast: POT ROAST A LA SLOW COOKER INGREDIENTS 2-4 pounds chuck roast ¼ cup flour ¼ tsp salt ¼ tsp pepper 2 Tb oil 1/2 packet dry onion soup mix 1 can condensed cream of mushroom soup Dash Worcestershire sauce 1 cup water 2-4 cloves garlic, sliced or minced 3 carrots, chopped or bag baby carrots 1 onion, chopped or bag frozen pearl onion 3 potatoes, peeled and cubed 1 stalk celery, chopped DIRECTIONS Take the chuck roast and season with salt and pepper to taste, dust with flour, and brown on all sides in a large skillet with 2 Tb oil over high heat. Place in the slow cooker and add the rest of the ingredients to the slow cooker. Cover and cook on low setting for 7 to 10 hours Variations: for a richer gravy add a second can of cream of mushroom soup, and/or sliced mushrooms, more garlic, parsley, a little herbs de provence goes well with this recipe too. . Can be cooked on high for 5 hours except add the vegetables only at the last hour of cooking otherwise they will melt into the sauce. Enjoy!

I have a question I've been toying with lately, (I actually posted this first on another thread, but I think it's more appropriate under the Doctrine forum.) regarding fellowship with believers and outreach. Does the model of fellowship with the believers in the book of Acts apply to today, and what exactly was that model? Is it different than what TWI legislated? What does the bible say? Scriptures anyone?? Should the model of what they did in the early days in California and New York with the way east and west be duplicated again? Did those fellowships work just for that period of time because of the Jesus movement, is it not possible to walk with God and others to that degree of effectiveness today? Are ex-wayers like the children of Isreal in the desert for fourty years, is it too late for us to have another organic movement of His Word? Has anyone else pondered these questions since leaving TWI?

dmiller, I think the subtlety eludes most here.....

Or was it a veiled threat?

This thread brings up a question I've been toying with lately, does the model of fellowship with the believers in the book of Acts apply to today, and what exactly was that model? Is it different than what TWI legislated? What does the bible say? Scriptures anyone?? Was the model what we saw in the early days in California and New York? Did those fellowships work just for that period of time because of the Jesus movement, is it not possible to walk with God and others to that degree of effectiveness today? Or are ex-wayers like the children of Isreal in the desert, does the whole generation have to die off before there's another organic movement of His Word? Has anyone else pondered these questions?

Amen to keeping it simple, Groucho, great post. Great comeback Raf, priceless! ha ha!

And to all those who say, "why don't you just get over it and move on!!".... Because those who have gone before me said it so well, again I digress, I must quote from our fellow poster, diazbro, again...the following are excerpts from previous threads: "This is an internet forum. Its virtual. No one is forced to come here. The effort required to post here is minimal. Its not like its a "life" investment. Maybe some people scour every post. I don't know and if they do then so be it. I don't care. People can work jobs , go to college, have families, go to a church, and still post here. In TWI the only possibility was to serve TWI. There was little time for anything else. I don't see how GS Cafe can be represented as a place for people whose only function in life is to moan about TWI. Besides if a person doesn't like it here then why do they keep coming ? Who is twisting anyone's arm ? Seems to me that people get fed up only when they start encountering opinions that don't match their own. Debate, disagree, and discuss but when people "pick up their toys" and wanna leave its a sure bet they got their feelings hurt so they wanna make like the entire forum has a problem. Its a tired act. Lots of posters have tried to dismiss Waydale and Gs Cafe as a collection of whiners, malcontents, infidels, reprobates, and lots of other names I can't recall at the moment. And almost all of these people still had some type of soft spot for TWI or its leaders. Of course there was always the "get over it" crowd who ,incidentally, were some of the most accusative posters ever. And some of them were former leaders and corps who were trying to get people to "forgive" them so they could rest easy. Incidentally - lots of Way leaders (past and present) want you to "get over it" because they know they have done lots of horrible things to people and they are lookng for an easy way out. LEt people talk about what they want. It doesn't cost anyone a dime to come here (expect maybe the monthly ISP bill) so how the hell is it a problem for someone if this place exists to discuss the problems with TWI ? Is it taking food out of someone's mouth ? Is it depriving someone of a job ? Peoples' lives were impacted by the evil perpetrated by TWI and its leaders Its not some damn joke. Some were heavily invested in an organization that turned on them and slandered them. So now they have a chance to talk about it yet someone else wants them to quit "being redundant" ? Who has the problem here ? …….Even if TWI ceased to exist as of this very moment , GS Cafe would still serve a purpose long into the future for those seeking to make sense of their Way experience. Some people made a considerable life investment in TWI and are struggling to deal with that aftermath. They have a liftime of Way experiences to match up with those of others just to see what it was all about and to see if they were perhaps imagining certain things. It might take someone years to do this and this forum is hell of a lot more convenient for them to accomplish that then writing letters or driving around the country trying to reconcile with others. If you've "gotten over it" then cool - but others haven't and it doesn't cost you, me, or anyone a dime to be here. Let people do what they will. ……. The timleine for recovery can be quite lengthy which is something that appears to be news for some even those who have been the recipient/victim of sustained, patterned abuse. First , it takes time and courage for someone to come to terms with being a victim. Its crucial to the reparation process to take an unflinching look at what happened as a form of acknowledgement that yes it did happen. It wasn't a product of anyone's imagination. And while time might have put some distance between some past events and today , the hurt is still there. Those who don't wish to "deal with it" or engage some self-investigative process *could* be in denial but I think its more common the case that they know its gonna be dragging up lots of (possibly very negative) emotions and it takes tremendous strength to deal with that. At times it can be like lifting the lid on a full trashcan thats been sitting under the Sun in July. Its not gonna be pleasant but how long do you want that trash to sit there. You can't blame someone like this - after all performing a self-inventory can disrupt your life and if you are relatively content then you might wish to avoid it though you know that the "trash" is still sitting there. Its just a question of how long you will let it remain. There are still areas in my life like this ,(not necessarily related to TWI), that I know I have to deal with sooner or later. The goal isn't to wallow in the pain and remain perpetually injured person. Its to take care of personal business that will 1) help you mend the relationship with yourself and others and 2) insure a layer of insulation against future potential situations that might prove to be abusive. But each must progress in their own time and at their own pace. Some married couples can tell you about this. One spouse is anxious to move past some problem whereas another needs more time and space to sort it out. Neither is wrong though practicality demands some type of resolution so both can continue to function and fulfll basic responsibilities. Hopefully they can agree to support each other or at the very least respect the process. My primary concern about all this is that I see folks on GSpot who want to , perhaps unconsciously, dictate to others a schedule of recovery. Maybe one has arrived at the place where a discussion on ,for example, the distribution of ABS back in 1977 represents useless information though for another it might be a breakthrough in their realization that there were financial improprieties taking place. Maybe they were part of it or knew someone who was. It helps people to "connect the dots". If your picture of TWI experience is complete and ready to be put aside for something else then good for you. Thats quite an accomplihsment. But perhaps some haven't finished with theirs yet. Maybe they want to take it at a slower pace or maybe their investment was far greater than another's thus it will take more time. I'll admit that I don't much care for the theological disucssions over in the doctrinal forum but thats my choice. Those who engage each other over there clearly want to and its important to them to "connect some dots" also so I respect that. I don't go over there and make it seem as if they are obssessed with mind numbing biblical minuate at the expense of reality. I let them be. Who knows maybe even one day I might find a discussion over there I want to get into. But the fact that I don't participate now doesn't negate its value for others. We aren't all working in the same jigsaw puzzle here , nor did everyone begin at the same time, and others aren't even working on a puzzle ,so its unreasonable to assume that we should all complete it at the same time. Seems to me that we've had some recent posters at Gspot who want others to leave it all behind simply because they have. Thats most unfortunate." Exactly!

Because the rest of the chapter is so instructional I think this thread warrants the rest of it. Mathew 23 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. 13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. 15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. 16Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! 17Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? 18And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. 19Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? 20Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. 21And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. 22And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon. 23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. 25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. 27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. 28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. 29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? 34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. 37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

I just discovered this forum last year, and for me, it has proven to be invaluable and has brought me deliverance, healing and clarity regarding some huge investments and huge losses in my life. Mostly just reading what has already been posted is where I found the deliverance. I think poster Diazbro said it best here: "It used to be that every six months or so that someone would post something along the lines of "gee , there isn't anything new here anymore so why should I continue to come here ?". This behavior actually started on Waydale though at that time there was still a fair amount of interesting, "insider" information being posted since TWI had yet to take seriously the internet forums. They had initially attempted to dismiss Waydale , then they forbade innies from reading, and then they assigned their suckups to read it. And then we know that they liked to distribute false information in specific geographic areas to see if it showed up on the forums so they could "smoke out" traitors and opponents of the "one true ministry". So over time we saw less and less information because of this but also because people were leaving - thus it is understandable that the "insider information" was drying up. I recall some people complaining about it as if these forums were supposed to serve as some type of gossip column for TWI. In my view its a bit immature to think that these forums are here to entertain and dazzle as if this is the national enquirer of the Way cult world. If someone is complaining about this aspect of it (not enough "insider info") then maybe they should take it upon themselves to find some and stop bugging the forum. This is a record of people's experiences with TWI. While one post might be terribly boring to one person , it could be EXACTLY what someone else needed so have some patience. I've always felt certain that the larger part of the readership at Gspot are lurkers who never post. This includes WayGB and innies who are contemplating a departure. IT also includes many ex-Way who just don't want to be recognized or don't want to take the trip down memory lane so they are content to benefit from the information being posted albeit in a passive fashion. Fair enough. Frankly I think there is such a thing as posting too much but perhaps if I had more time I would post more. Its also important to remember that we are not all at the station in life as another. Nor did we all leave TWI at the same time. Some are still trying to figure out what happened in TWI while others have long since moved on. The point is that just because someone is "over it" doesn't mean that another should be too. Thats a huge assumption I see being made though less frequently these days than in the early days of Gspot and on Waydale. Plus many people don't have lots of time to digest all the information on this site. I know I haven't. Some people do seem to spend a great deal of time here so if the material seems dry or not so fresh please understand that for many of us there is too much to wade though and we are getting there in our own time at our own pace. Also it might also be the case that we reach different conclusions so be prepared for that. There is no requirement to be "like minded" in our lives after TWI so its a sure bet that lots of people will have their own ideas about their time with TWI and Gspot is a place for that type of information. I think its a good place and it needs to be here. In my mind even if TWI were to completely cease operations today, then Gspot would still need to remain because lots of people have yet to find this place. There are also others who do know its here but they simply aren't ready to start the rehabilitation process or start looking at all thats here so when they are, its here. TWI experience was very damaging for many people so having a place like this is important." Diazbro That quote was from the thread "greasespot....sore spot for twi". Click Here: Link People come here bruised and broken hearted, many find deliverance and peace here... Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised Many who are the elder posters here operate much like big brothers and sisters in compassion toward others with a view toward restoring one another from error to truth. Mark 6:34 And Jesus, when he came out, saw much people, and was moved with compassion toward them, because they were as sheep not having a shepherd: and he began to teach them many things. This parable should be renamed from the prodigal son to the forgiving Father: Luke 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. I find it real hard to tollerate anyone operating within the christian field who doesn't have compassion for the injured, or tollerance for suffering, no matter how small, be it mental, spiritual or emotional. Until you have walked in another persons shoes you cannot possibly know what they've endured or judge them. I don't believe the "prodigal son" had injured anything but his relationship with his father, and maybe his pride, but God Amightly chose to include it in His Word. I don't think Jesus put a time conditional limit for people carrying burdens, Mathew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. And finally... Mathew 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. Hmm...I wonder who this sounds like? Hmm, now, who could it be??? Could it be….??

The facts are that human beings are not capable of pulling off miraculous healings without the help of one spiritual power or the other. We are not able to accomplish that without help from either God or the Adversary. In light of that, the theory presented to us by Vp, "believing equals receiving", and "it works for saint and sinner alike", fails the acid test. We don't have that kind of power at our disposal, it has to be a gift from God. I can ask for whatever I need, and have confidence that God can pull it off, I don't think I can earn it by my magic believing abilities, at the least, I am humble enough to admit that. Hmmm, this account even has a healthy dose of unbelief mixed in, which didn't derail the healing either.

Let's face it, the law of believing never left much room for humility, it was all about entitlement, like so much of wierwille's doctrine, remember "demanding" what you needed at God's throne? That is so far to the extreme that I'm embarrassed we actually believed we could treat God like that. And what happened if you got sick or had a car accident or something bad happened to you or your family, you were blamed for not believing, judged by all for not being spiritual enough. How about the numerous Corps that were run out on a rail and kicked out for their lack of believing ability? If God was so much a part of it, then God should have been blamed for all those apparent "failures".

Really some great stuff here about the law of believing as we were taught at TWI. Is this article new or is it old? I just found it in the GS main page here: GS article The Law of Believing-No God Needed Here's some excerpts: Aint that the truth! About healing the article says: This reminds me of once a while back when I proposed these same ideas about healing to a LC, Dave Stand*ge, and stated that what we were taught by vp was not accurate regarding vp's believing formula to receive healing-that it was flawed. Wow, you've never seen a visage change so quickly and violently, I was instantly blown back from the torrent of red face yelling and personal attacks that was coming out of his mouth toward me. He really towed the company line. I've never seen anyone so threatened by an idea before. I also once asked him what he thought about certain women I had heard about who were telling of sleeping with vpw. He proceeded to tell me that once in his car he had a fellow Corps who was weeping and emotionally distraught over sex with vp. He told me his answer to her was that he didn't want to hear about it, and then he told me laughingly that those stories weren't true. He still didn't want to talk about it-seemed to be a pattern with him, not wanting to talk about things. Job was right: Regarding real life and real faith: Regarding negative confession the article says: Really good stuff, a must read.

Unfortunately, I think there's a lot of women out there that would enjoy that kind of offer. And it wouldn't surprise me that his boldness and openess about it is a result of former sucess in this kind of arrangement or con, whichever it is. He gives aviation a bad name.

Yes, but where did they come from after the flood? Does the bible ever say?

What does the book say in regards to Nephilim after the flood, what were their origins if the flood had killed off everyone and the angels were imprisioned? I haven't understood how that could have happened after reading the book of Enoch and some comentaries.

WW, I don't think he meant to say that vpw sent Heefn*r, I think Heefn*r got that directly from the Source. Maybe we could get more details of the big picture from someone who was there. I am also interested to know historically, what got Stephen E started, it sounds like he was native to the Bronx area. There is so much murkiness about those days, I wish someone had it written down in detail in book form.

I remember I was in a grad's only Advanced class in Oklahoma City with Mike and Lisa Trac*y, the LC's, a day or two or three before VP passed. They were contacted in the middle of one of the sessions and told that VP was gravely ill. We had no prior idea that he was even sick, and I don't know if the LC's had any prior knowledge that he was on his deathbed, but we were asked to pray for his comfort and rest only, and not for his healing specifically, it was made clear that we were not asking for him to be healed. As far as people being able to "believe" for, or to receive healing, it is all subjective. I have had numerous instantaneous healings from day one on, but still wear glasses and go to the dentist quite often for root canals and the like. Certain things are easier than others, I don't know why, it just is. There are different factors involved with each healing or lack thereof. I do KNOW that what we were taught about healing from TWI was not the whole story, nor was it all accurate.

My3, If it wasn't Heefn*r who started it out there, then who did? I don't know all the history or the progression of what happened in the beginning of the Jesus Movement on the East coast or the Midwest, but other posters here at GS attributed God telling both Perez and Heefn*r to go to Long Island & New York and then the Word would really move there. What happened before they came out?

I guess I was just wondering out loud..online..probably right ChasU, there would have been someone else F-ing it up if not for VPW. From what some of the posters here describe it, it was a beautiful thing back then when the Way was not a part of it, before Hq's and the WC took over, it was an organic, nurturing, growing, loving thing without a lot of structure and rules or routine. It seems from the record here on GS that back then the believers and fellowships were very sucessful when left to grow on their own, where God called people to serve, without titles, without placements, without someone authorizing them to serve, they just did it from the heart cause they cared about God and about people, and the Lord worked in them to do so. Very different from the way TWI II & III ran things. From what I read in Acts, what the Way became doesn't jive with what the first century church did. Fellowships became so reigimented, hierarchical, and so cookie cutter christian, so homogenous and generic. There was no life in some of those twigs. I see a more fluid church in Acts, I also see them meeting inside the temple quite a lot and eating meals together in the homes in the many references of breaking bread, and praying together. And why did we ever swallow that we had to be fed from an organizational root? And fed from one organization almost exclusively? We were so naive and accepting...so busy about serving and pleasing the order of the orginization (diolitry) that we divided our attention from whom we were supposed to be pleasing. Talk about fog years-how about the whole time?

I wonder what it would have been like if there was no TWI? If we peel time back to when He*fner and Do*p were witnessing in New York and California, and eliminate VPW, and have allowed God to call people to serve, what should it have become? What would have looked like?