So_crates

I don't think it was a disconnect between words and deeds. I think it was more of an ensample problem. Most of the twig leaders I knew wanted to be Saint Vic clones. As a result, they used Saint Vic methods: yelling, bullying, caring only about themselves...etc. You can only go as far as your taught.

As far as ministry history goes, I'm interested in two periods: 1971-1979 1985-86 Those are relevent to me because those were the years I was in. Everything else is intellectual exercise. Sherlock Holmes once said your mind is like an attic, why fill it with a lot of useless clutter? Along those lines, Henry Ford once brought a defamation suit against someone who said he was ignorant. The defense lawyer asked Ford a wide assortment of questions (you know, when was the War of 1812 fought? How many British fought in the Revolutionary War?) Ford finally got fed up with the line of questioning. He told the lawyer: Young man, on my desk is a row of buttons. By pressing one of those buttons, I can get someone to answer any question I ask. Now why should I fill my head with a lot of useless details? Needless to say, he won the lawsuit In Ford's spirit, in my office, I have a 5-inch binder filled with ministry climate. If I want to know most things about the ministry, I can refer to that. Usually I ask about the blank spots.

Did you direct me to WordWolf's 2015 post? Or JAL's 1988 letter within that post? No, instead you snarkily responded, Ask JAL, he's on Facebook. As you can see, I know how to use Google. If I wanted to ask JAL, I would have. Nobody's jumping down your throat: Don't mistake assertiveness for aggression: There's no hostility intended. No, what's weird is when someone can make vicious statements against JAL and they're not told to look him up on Facebook, then someone else asks a straight question and then gets a snarky response.

Not jumping down your throat, just calling 'em as I see 'em. I've read some pretty vicious statements in this forum directed at JAL, oddly enough, I've never read one post saying "Take it up with JAL, he's on Facebook." So why the exception? 1986? Really? So why didn't you say so in the first place? Why be uncooperative? (Oh, and entering 1986 and JAL's full name into Google brings up a post by WordWolf dated September 26, 2015, the letter you mention was dated March 30, 1988--not in 1986 as you stated. It states he was fired for reasons undiclosed to him.). However, the letter I read, it being some 20 years ago, so forgive me if I don't remember the date, said he started realizing how far off The Word the ministry had gotten (another way of saying he had an epithany) and either left or decided to leave (I don't remember which--again 20 years ago). I guess you must have skimmed my post: I never said he was purged. I said: All the purges and he chose to stay, what was the straw that broke the camel's back? Neither do I have any association with JAL's organization, nor do I want association with any Way organization.

What a smashing idea Rocky And in the spirit of your idea, next time you have a complaint about the ministry, why don't you take it up with them? I've read many complaints about JAL here, why aren't they taking them to JAL? Think of the bandwidth that be saved. Or is there one set of rules for me and another for everyone else? What's that you say? They'll ignore the complaints or won't provide a straight answer. Think maybe that's my expectation? Why? Look at the ministry's history. I remember Saint Vic in a teaching tape responding to claims he was partying with the ABS money. He ridiculed up one side and down the other. (Important life lesson: When people resort to ridicule your on to something). For all Saint Vic's ridicule, how'd that turn out? Another individual said people shouldn't criticize how the ministry uses ABS because he attended BOT meeting were Uncle Harry would be literally crying, Lord, show me how to spend this money. Years later, how did that turn out? So you can see why I'm hesitant about going to the horse's mouth. I know JAL's side of it. Many years ago, two believers wanted me to get involved with JAL's group. In a letter to the believers he said he had an epithany and left. I just wonder: All the purges and he chose to stay, what was the straw that broke the camel's back?

So, does anybody know the reason JAL left the vay?

At lunch one day, in the BRC basement, Dr announced that as part of his preparation for teaching the new class he was going to “take” the class for the first time. At that time he had only seen the first half hour of the ‘67 film class, so in order to prepare for teaching the same material again, Dr set up a schedule to watch the entire thing. Every day he’d show up at lunch and tell us which session he was in as he progressed through the class. Some days he did one session or two, other days he did only a part. When Dr completed Session Five he reported to us that he had Christ in him, “the hope of glory” and we all cheered. Word went around that some staffers were doing up some calligraphy on a PFAL diploma for Dr, so that he could become an official “PFAL Grad” like us. Everyone was quite excited to see Dr take the class this way. It was a wonderful touch to see this as we all worked hard to prepare for PFAL’77. I say “all” in the sense that even though not all was totally perfect, we never voiced it, and it WAS pretty darn good how we all got along, especially compared to ten years later. These were still the “good old days” in many ways. Then one day Dr showed up at lunch with a glum look on his face. I see the propaganda wing of The Way was still working full force. Were we to believe someone who didn't have the patience or gumption to do his own research sat on his hams for three hours watching a snoozefest? More like he had someone else watch it, then give him the Cliff's Note version complete with a highlight to tell all in attendance.

Speaking as someone having non-Hodgkins lymphoma--specifically Waldenstrom macroglobulinemia--myself, I can assure you that you don't "beat" a blood cancer. Having two chemotherapies in the past four years, I realize its more like a video game: you don't win, you stave off defeat. You don't beat it, you live to fight again another day. Unlike many cancers--which can be cut out and the survivor declared cancer free--with lymphoma, the best you can hope for is remission. Even with remission, you know in the back of you mind its still there, dormant in your marrow, waiting to spring forth like the disease in Camus' The Plague and wreak havoc. My particular form of lymphoma has tumors that produce a protein. They'll continue producing that protein to the detriment of everything else. So red blood and white blood cell counts drop and will continue dropping to dangerous levels without treatment. After my last chemotherapy, my white cell count was at or near zero for more than six months. No white cells, no immunity. I was instructed not to eat anything not cooked and monitor for thrush. Luckily, after six months my marrow kick started and started doing its job.

How does a ministry wedding differ from a non-believer wedding? Are there any customs that go with getting married in the ministry?

Actually, the salutations trace back to the new testament, specifically the letters the apostles wrote. Like everything else in his life, Saint Vic stole--(errrrr) paid homage to the epistles.

And when I went on the feild in '75 Saint Vic was on stage telling everyone he'd stayed up all night SITtin to be sure they got it all right. So, how did they pick who would be on the feild with who? SoCrates

Here's a radical idea, BA. Both of the above are true. How? Cancer is a devil spirit. Saint Vic never said which god he was recieving his revelation from. Perhaps the same one that dispatched the cancer devil spirit? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm? SoCrates

So shall we all take a moment to reflect on how well Saint Vic applied his own crock? There he was a bully, an adulterer, yadda, yadda yadda, ad nauseam. Did he have a lot to improve? I'd say yes. So what was his part? Where was his believing? Where did God do any heavy lifting for him? And love, yep he was the absolute model of love, wasn't he? So shall I assume Saint Vic believed for women to seduce and people to bilk? This seems to be where his believing lead him and kept him until the day he died. SoCrates

Or he doesn't relish the idea of having to go out into the world and find a real job like the rest of us. SoCrates

BA, while the cry may have been victory, I think people were actually celebrating justice being served--one of those rare times we note good really does triumph over evil. SoCrates

Back in the early 90s, a person I knew in The Way was trying to get me interested in CES. He showed me a letter JAL had sent out to Way people saying he had come to an epithany and realized he had made mistakes in his understanding of Bibical Research. Among the points he ennumerated was that he came to realize the law of beliving effects nothing outsie your skin. Other points, I'm a little foggy on--it was 20 years ago--but I belive he was also claiming the giants in Genesis were real giants. SoCrates

Thanks, waysider, ex. But since we know believing is magical thinking, wasn't the LEAD program flawed from jump or should I say poking up the thumb? SoCrates

Maybe some of you who have been through LEAD can help me understand. I fail to see a connection between hitchhiking and believing. Trust me, I spent many a cold winter night hitchhiking 12 miles back to my house after twig. It didn't affect me believing one bit. So how are the two supposed to connect? SoCrates

You answered your own question: Satan disguises himself as an angel of light, or even as a ministry of light. Why such intimate knowledge of the devil? Evil understands evil intimately. Who do you think was really whispering in Saint Vic's ear? SoCrates

In the woman of God soundbite: Repeating the phrase "YOU GOT IT BABY!" Talk about a phrase that carries a vomitous irony. SoCrates

We've all heard this tune a million time before. Rather than aging like fine wine, it sours like vingear and sets out teeth on edge. SoCrates

Welcome to the Saint Vic cliche festival. SoCrates