chockfull

You guys have me reminiscing about ROA stories now. What a walking cluster #!/&* that was. Reading through all this now I'm thinking "how the hell did they get me to put up with all this BS?" I guess they moved the boundaries in my life an inch at a time a year at a time until they owned me mostly. But you can never fully own a free heart. But you can micromanage a ministry into non-existence all while being catered to hand and foot and living in a house Way Builders built that you own but didn't pay for the labor on. What kind of seared heart would do that all while forcing followers to live under the burden of a landlord? Just one more 2 bit example of sin, ego, and mistreating the followers of Jesus who go to your church and trust you.

my thoughts were more along the lines of the evil leech-like qualities of twi have not changed since the last generation. meaning it's sin to take out student loans to have a secular career. then once a person navigates that, starts to get in a place where they can work and prosper, they leech on to that. bring them in to live in a trailer or a dorm and be under direct servitude of her holiness. for what purpose was the degree and the approx $75k that represents? plus the pharm school at about that as well. $150k of schooling all for what? a more honest approach would be for the ministry to send kids to actually get trained in places where degrees are accredited, sponsor some careers as ministers. if that's what they want to do. but oh no. "the world" has nothing to teach these idiots. plus probably a year at a divinity school would smarten the kids up where they would never return. i heard someone mention once a direct quote from the BODummies about the over 100 years of combined spiritual wisdom that brain trust had. there is probably an OT mule with their name on it. -RNR- would be the brand. but yes, another 12 years and the resume faces some serious opportunities. grandiose titles at twi have translated to jobs delivering packages and in collections when the rubber meets the paycheck. H0rneys last i heard were in nevada and in twi but who knows. he always was pursuing mountains - he's a physical therapist, and she was writing novels under a pseudonym. was their kid a marine? they are in a weird catch 22 where they have enough blackmail info to get mostly what they want but will never be in power. F0rt - last i heard he was working for some believer dude's company in indiana and they were in. i actually think that one is more of a familial clinging with them hanging in there - cindy being howards daughter. of your other listed people i think i knew 6 but not sure of all their details.

sometimes i get curious about what's going on lately. not that often honestly. and not curious enough to buy a Way magazine ;) because that would involve giving them money.

i agree. amazingly enough the entire time i was in twi other than the public scandals i personally never ran into this. i heard some rumors but by the time you heard the rumor it usually was damage control after they got kicked out or something. so i discounted it. i never thought it was woven into the upper layers of leadership. thought never even crossed my mind. because it was hidden, even the scandals i didn't react with a normal indignancy. mentally i was like the guy made a mistake. i was pretty naieve and blind.

is bob moneyhands still there writing "redrum" on the windows as he wanders the halls all by himself and schedules security for the one visitor this month? yeah they own it. i think they paid cash for the land and some old buildings on the property, then ed h*bbs company built all the log home structures. vp tried to get him to donate all the work and ed told him he learned from his class a workman is worthy of his hire and he made twi pay for all of it. even in all the flimflam there were/are people in twi with vestiges of common sense.

yep yep. what up WordWolf? God allows us to be tempted and tested. this proves our character to ourselves and God. unfortunately the label didn't matter to me. i read it and took the class anyway. both true but i don't think there is one church that represents "God's ministry". I think that premise is faulty. i think that there were some out to make a buck off that like ted patrick. but most who use the cult label with twi i've found to either have had personal negative experience or someone close to them had negative experience. i think twi earns every bit of their cult label by their behavior. sheesh look at what they've done to their own way corps. put all these people through FlimFlamU graduate them, then drop them. jesus taught he that troubles his own house shall inherit the wind. i guess that was prophetic, no? "but twi has changed it's better now". yeah i can see how they have reformed by how chandl*r gr*ene has a pharmacy degree that he's not using that he couldn't go in debt to get but now he's the way corps director. same story different generation. and they have 2 people left.

yes i agree that twi's dark side didn't stop God from blessing people in it. i have a wife and family from my time in twi - we never would have met otherwise. johniam this is actually one of the toughest things to come to grips with. its like job: from victim to victor part 4. the goodness of God, the badness of the devil, and the corruption of a megalomaniac (or 3). the way i look at it now God led me in, then led me out. to me that's a healthier viewpoint than i screwed up my youth, missed all the signs, and now i'm all alone on a dung heap. although i'm sure that's how twi would want me to feel. but that's what makes them like westboro baptist. God can help anyone anywhere, innies, outies, people going to home fellowships splintered off from the splinter of a splinter of a megalomaniac. actually that's part of the twi mentality trap. that you have to be in a certain place or following the orders of a certain person for God to bless you or even listen to your prayers.

this type of speech really hasn't varied since whatever pope it was threatened martin luther. and in twi all of them were and are like this at the top vpw lcm rfr. the longer the leader is there, they garner more power, become paranoid, and start reassigning assistants to siberia. the remaining asistants are under a regime like the communist rule. yes this highlights a great point about how to pinpoint and avoid spiritual abuse. Places that don't allow free conversation and criticism - that indicates a red flag to avoid. sorry can't relate to the rock star analogy - all that does is put that dumb song in my head by that dumb band that i don't like.

Irony of ironies, the loan taken out to buy the Emporia KS campus is documented in Uncle Harry's book I believe. Or maybe Mrs VPW's BATS book. Actually that would make an awesome study for a twig presentation - "A Study of Debt" from the founding two Sec/Treasurers of TWI as seen through Way biographical books. I don't believe a loan was obtained to buy the Gunnison CO property. Oh, and then there's a discussion to be had about how much was lost in the sale of each of these properties - I want to hear that discussion from the Sec/Treas who would turn the lights in the bathroom off on you all the time.

So my question is if I successfully implement all of the "keys", do I unlock a badge accomplishment? Does something ding, and I get to slay a dragon and rescue a fair maiden?

Hmmm.... The last one I went to had free Bibles on the back table if you forgot yours, had scripture references on the screen during the sermon, had an App you could download to follow along that had all the scripture references of the sermon in the Notes section of the App as well as a link to an online Bible. Or you could just listen and follow along on the screen if you wanted to. The one I went to before that to listen to a band was kind of scripture reading oriented. In that they would publish and cover a certain section of scripture during a certain time period. I Kings in September or something. And they didn't really preach, they like read a section of scripture and that was it. The world is a much bigger place than cultic small groups.

Alternative definition: Working the Word: "The Word" in its natural state does not suffice as a tool for manipulating the weak and providing the megalomaniac with power. Thus they will "work" it.

Dude, chill out. A lot of these old dogs around here's bark is much worse than their bite. ;) Have a cup of java on the cafe and keep breathing.... Nice article charlene :)

Rumor control I heard was that he didn't live with the doc but TWI owned a house outright for LCM to live in rent free. He has to report to the doc though who fills in the directors.

You are entitled to call people on the fact vs. opinion. And I agree with Allan that I'm not challenging your views on this either. Or implying that views on one side of this or another indicate anything else. I do think you read a little into my comment on spiritual elitist. I was commenting on the flavor of one post, not an overall assessment of someone's life. I do think one horrible habit we picked up in TWI was an extreme intolerance for opposing views. So I want to act more normally in this setting, not like a cult member. After a little more reflection I also wanted to add that because TWI taught a spiritual elitist attitude on one side of the manifestations, I acknowledge that for many people developing a strong attitude on the other side of the argument helps them balance things out for them. I agree.

Yes we were taught to be gong players for sure in the ministry. And VP's lack of integrity is the foundation of TWI.

I guess I specifically thought your post was confrontationally challenging Allen and throwing a gauntlet down to have him enter a million dollar challenge to prove the genuine nature of what he feels is a genuine act. Actually that's about exactly how it came off. And rather than rehash an old prolonged heated argument again I just thought that maybe you dialing it back a couple notches and respecting that others who post here have a different opinion than yourself on this matter would be warranted. That's all. Sorry if you didn't understand what I meant by "Buzz Killington". It seems to me that one side of this argument isn't the only place "spiritual elitism" as an attitude is encountered. I didn't mean to get in the middle of you guys argument.

I absolutely agree with you that the classes and ministry in general instilled a spiritual elitist attitude that was definitely surrounding this topic of gifts of the spirit or manifestations. Oh and no worries on taking things personal. I'm just standing up for beliefs too.

not directed at you. I respect that others have different opinions than myself on this matter. Actually after thread review SPECIFICALLY not directed at you. You clearly state views as your opinion in post #22. I just request equal reciprocal respect.

Absolutely. the numbered characteristics in that article including this one pretty much catalog how cult leaders act.

and again, not to rehash but gloassalallia is not proven to be 100% same as speaking in tongues. I disagree that the "yes it is" is provable. And again you are getting spun up into a page and a half long post here. my position is God designed SIT for people's PRIVATE prayer lives, not for public exploitation and the collection of a million dollars. I really don't want to rehash all the errors taught in way classes, or be misinterpreted again that I support all that. I will leave it at that.

Without diving headlong into a previous argument here, do you think you could be a little less Buzz Killington? I'm starting to pick up around here an attitude like people have proven that modern tongues is false and everyone faked it in TWI. No you haven't. Or did we need to revisit all that logic again? God never states anywhere that He will support man's test theories or million dollar "prove it" logic. And unfortunately the way God works He wouldn't support that kind of proof any more than He would have been able to if the devil convinced Jesus to throw himself from the top of a ledge so that angels could bear him up. wayside I still disagree with this. And you are stating it as fact. People still do speak in tongues around here, and pray and all that. if you want to share your experience that's fine but you don't speak for me here.

Knowing sh1t Howard Allen used to say about insurance like "God is my insurance" and stuff like that I would bet they probably didn't want to pay comprehensive collision on that big rig.

Yes many of those Genesis interpretations were mere speculation and invention - a new mysterious story that sounds cool. Regarding the Genesis writers, I thought basic astronomy was known during that time, much more than worlds of the flat in Columbus days. The zodiac signs and "witness of the stars" or that type of information was I thought catalogued at Alexandria. That doesn't seem to coincide with the claim made in that article though. He just states unequivocably that it was believed the earth was flat in that time without introducing one shred of supporting evidence. Still it's an interesting article. I did hear it in TWI. It was part of 2nd foundational class.

Right on everybody. It really is telling to me that when we all start thinking of that term in the Bible life - zoe - life in all of it's manifestations, why is it that more of that has started to open up to us once we stopped listening to the Pharisees?