chockfull

My impression was that VPW was more of a natural narcissist and generally believed his own lies and hype. Craig was more of a narcissist by imitation but was a very diligent student. I think he also believed his own lies. Yes I trusted them and should not have as it added two decades of bondage to my life path that I probably could have done without. Thats the ramifications for me. I guess everyone can speak for themself.

I have zero interest in starting a thread on forgiveness. I was just responding to someone lecturing me on this thread about how I was not doing it and needed to.

It seems to me like the topic is sliding. From one point to three points. But you do seem to get a charge out of telling me I’m wrong. I will refrain from posting any more on this thread until I understand better what the topic is.

Sorry you’re losing me with whatever the topic of the thread is. So now it’s down to 3 main topics, but they aren’t anything to do with the posts I was responding to. Okay. The teach and da forehead were fallible, they didn’t use self deprecating humor, and they did t display love mercy peace handling conflict? Okay. Those seem to me to be characteristics as opposed to discussion points. I don’t know what you mean by when they knew that they knew that they knew. That’s another repetitive type of statement like we saw in PFAL. Most narcissists and con artists believe their own lies. Is this what you mean - when did they start believing their own lies? Who knows?

People move on with their lives all the time and it is not contingent upon them forgiving their abuser. Some murder victims forgive the accusers others don’t. Life moves on in either case. The topic has been “forgiveness”. So going to the Bible to define that term as opposed to using your past discussion as the standard for truth seems the most logical. How God does it is pertinent. How people forgive each other is also pertinent. The whole point of figures of speech is language that doesn’t fit direct speech. It has nothing to do with what is nice for me to call. Again if you believe it is direct tell me what works greater you’ve done. It is not going down a rabbit hole to ask for an example if it is direct language. But making excuses and dodging the question certainly leaves you in a rabbit hole. I eat sleep drink as Christ did - those works I’ve done. A little teaching and ministering but on a minuscule comparative scale. No man with a withered hand manufactured account for me. Nobody healed born blind. No dead resurrected. And I didn’t get up from the dead nor have I ascended. So mostly it is a no to the same works Christ did. How about you? With cults it is not really the interpretation of scripture that is the main problem, but rather the problem is making shipwreck the family faith, and all the abuse detailed in the BITE model. The RCs are a large cult also. But they accept and collaborate with other Christians. do not isolate people and control them to the same degree. Whatever interpretation you are going through should direct you to a more virtuous life or it’s not worth it. And it may inspire you differently. But make no mistake the “greater works” verse we are discussing the Way interprets to mean leading people into SIT. And that is accomplished for them by getting them in “the class”. I don’t think Jesus was prophecying about running PFAL when he mentioned greater works. That is 100% a cult construct.

The Way International is the only environment I have been in where it is never talked about sinners repenting. Repentance is a mental state recognizing past action as being sin and against Gods truth and resolving to change the behavior. Interestingly all of the 12 step programs absolutely are centered around repentance and change. And they have shown results for millions. Repentence is never part of TWI because those sinners never repent - they double down on “grace administration” logic and bury and whitewash sin on the part of the leaders, then hold the laymen’s feet to the fire because they are “not believing”. That is one of the main reasons why it is a cult as opposed to genuine Christianity.

In the Bible does it say if you confess your sins then God is faithful to forgive your sins? Or it doesn’t say that in your Bible? If that is true then what is your conclusion on forgiveness? Is there recognition and / or action required on the part of the sinner or they can just keep on the exact same evil lifestyle and God and everyone else needs to forgive them because you say so? I read Jesus words of encouragement to his followers who revered and worshipped him as just that - words of encouragement and a figure of speech regarding “greater works”. If you believe the “greater works” is literal then maybe you could list out the things you have done in your life that are greater than what Christ did and we can all compare notes. Or as you say list out the works you have done that are equal to Christs works since it is so logical. To me scripture is for inspiration. So yes it is personal. But the wrong dividing of scripture produces bondage not freedom. So I take issue with the wrong dividing of scripture that leads people to bondage. Like PFAL and the law of victim blaming. Wait that’s law of believing.

You had a whole graphic fictional incident that sounded like a gang kidnapping. Then you drew a parallel to Jesus forgiving his murderers. And hyped up greater works than Christ like the PFAL class. But these greater works according to you are measured by how immediately we forgave Craig or VP. I have no idea if VP or Craig ever asked for my forgiveness. I’m thinking no. It does seem like you are getting to your point though - “no prison sentence would be appropriate” - yes it was very difficult to get anything on Warren Jeffs despite overt illegal acts for decades. But Craig induced a suicide by his adultery and VP drugged and raped young women on his bus with assistance from Geer. And exposed himself to a woman who may have been underage at the time from a published book account. But hey no punishment would be appropriate, right chief?

Bigger than a tomato smaller than a moon. I’m noting similar tactics of isolation and control. All pretty well defined within Hussein BITE model. That model doesn’t really apply to most churches, civic groups, meetups, groups. But it does apply to the major cults. The minor cults can be even more controlling. Heavens Gate, Davidians, white supremacists, gangs, biker clubs, etc.

Hey Hammy! God bless you. I’m doing ok thanks yeah dragging parts and doing pit stops to replace them you know how it is!

One interesting point here is research points to a distinction in the audience Jesus was addressing. The foot soldiers who were carrying out crucifixion orders were among those addressed directly there. It is arguable that he was extending this to the Pharisee group that were arranging his crucifixion or the local authorities like Herod making the decisions. Many noted researchers draw the distinction in audience here not just me. Plenty to learn if you study it. There are a lot of things within the realm of possibility. The whole “greater works” is a schtick of VPW that he hyped up in his class to try and show that mandated glossallalia was greater than what Jesus did on earth. It also is anti Christ as it puts someone or some ministry in the place of Christ between you and God reconciling people to God. Which is beyond their authority. The genuine ministry of reconciliation referred to in scripture reconciles people to God via Christ. It doesn’t reconcile people with a ministry, a leadership group, a hamster wheel to run on with the benefits going to an organization of men. It doesn’t say “forgive VP, Craig, Rosalie, and current doofuses and come on home”. God that “greater works” misinterpretation to pump up a man’s ego and exhort him to bondage annoys me. Jesus was simply encouraging them to carry on on the faith he started because he was soon ascending. But noooooooooooooooooo. We learned in Plaffy that it is Gods Will for people not only to be saved but come to an experiential knowledge of the truth. And the only way they can do that is ….. wait for it …………………………………. more Plaffy! See it is a a self solving problem! Now all that’s left is for the grifters to go shopping!

Thanks. I draw a distinction between major cults with membership rolls many times that of TWI and other cults. They function differently. So I will retain the original for greater clarity detail.

So I look at the outreach and leadership programs of mainstream Christianity. And I look at the outreach and leadership programs of TWI. I see more similarities in the practicality of functioning between large cults (Mormons, JWs, Scientology) than I see similarities between TWI and any group of mainstream Christianity. The mainstream Christian groups collaborate, share money and resources, share leadership, and are based upon collaboration with others in the body of Christ. TWI is based upon exclusivity and complete control. Like the other major cults they feel mainstream Christianity has gone “apostate” and no longer represent the truth of Christ in our day and time. Rather than lose that complete control they are moving to a third world expansion model. Paul warned of those who made shipwreck of “the family faith”. That is TWI. Building more Titanics to experience their maiden voyage.

Whenever the topic of cults and the evil actions of founders and top leaders come up, there is always this argument present. I call this the “whitewash argument”. It masks as forgiveness, but the unintended extended consequence is that it excuses the evil behavior of the leaders and hides it due to people being imperfect. This is the exact lie that all of the current top leaders in TWI tell themselves every day. “Well VP and Craig weren’t perfect, or Rosalie or the current clowns. I’m not perfect either. It’s the best thing we’ve got in an imperfect world.” Saying that Craig and Rosalie for that matter should be serving a prison sentence rather than lavishing in their current situations has nothing to do with my emotional recovery from the cult they lead or did lead. No I’m not immersing my head in the evil and making my whole life about revenge but that doesn’t discount the evil that happened and will continue to happen if people don’t wake up to the reality and stop accepting people lying to you. I am long past forgiving people for their personal actions related to my life. It is really funny though how whenever I call out the truth of something it always wraps back around to some judging me for being “unforgiving”. Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.

I don’t have to post here. I can leave it for all those writing memoirs…

And other times a cigar is the method for lighting a fuse …

I think we all got into TWI by some form of altruistic bait like fish bait hiding the hook. We found out about the evil later. What in Gods creation does any of that have to do with the Ways Ambassador program? I guess as a rhetorical question indirectly there were a lot of WOW ambassador alumni around helping to fish with altruistic bait…

So to clarify because it sounds like this is saying I was one of those who joined “for the chance to have power over other people” as you are sharing your story as a rebuff to my “No” comment, I joined TWI in college because I was seeking God and the truth of the Word. The laymen in TWI seemed to be masters of this “speaking in tongues” concept whereas the pastor at my denomination said he didn’t see the Bible saying much at all about it. Yes there were aspects also “Hiding in Plain Sight”. I have not nor will not publish a memo of my experiences in TWI. I am glad you did. I enjoyed reading the book you wrote whose chapters you attached here. We all have our path in the body of Christ. Because mine is not yours don’t kick dirt on the path I chose.

Sorry there were three questions. I was summarizing my feeling about them never being interested in godly lives or positively impacting the overall body of Christ. Rocky seemed to be picking at a portion of my earlier more lengthy post and trying to make it say something I did not intend. So I didn’t feel the need to expand upon the answer. Now I’m making “sweeping generalizations” apparently. okaaaaay.

No.

Let me see. Well first there was the WOW Ambassadors - at that stage there still is the Bible in the name topic. Huge amount of hype. The next name is “Way Disciple”. Not “Disciple of Jesus Christ”. Also accurate. They are selling TWI and Plaffy not the Bible. Finally it’s just “Way Ambassador”. We are not even pretending here with title that it has anything to do with the Bible. It’s just an ambassador for the organization. Also accurate. If you pay attention they are upfront about their control and idolatry. Words mean something. All the hype and commitment is to the organization and none of it is to the underlying Word of God, the overall body of Christ, or anything related to building virtue - it is all compliance exercises - complying with people who do not speak for God in any sense of the word.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Christian_Press One of millionaire brother Harry’s purchases was the equipment. It gives all the ISBN numbers assigned for books published. There is no outside publicating or verifying agent involved so unlike books who hire a publisher there is no quality control. I bet cranking it up and putting out Spanish and French new translation material is their greatest current cash cow. So much so it drives another BOD position opening up to oversee it. Now I don’t know if the equipment itself is so outdated that they need to outsource printing. They may do that.

Yes if your compliance knows no boundaries there’s always a job for you at TWI. I’m sure the Weekly’s are masters of monitoring and complying like all the predecessors. I guess if they are keeping tithes local there are two options: 1. Distribution according to need like in the Bible 2. Little leprechauns amassing their own pots of gold I wonder what the track record is there among the international TWI entities. I would say evidence points to #2 with a lot of mark and avoid action for former leprechaun leaders. What is your observation?

You know I never noticed it before but “for” is a preposition. Why is it capitalized in PFAL? Shouldn’t it be Power for Abundant Living ? PfAL Hey if it walks like a grammatically correct duck it should talk like a grammatically correct duck.

Now on the topic of the thread isn’t it eye opening TWI needs another director position to sell translations of their main foundational class? Is he the McFranchise director? Dedicated to selling the McWay, the McTruth, and the McLife to the 3rd world?