chockfull

Decisions not only mine are based upon some blend of logic and emotion. I guess the exact makeup of both would be different for me than you. I have never been friends with you on social media that I am aware of. Thx for the response. Different views to me aren’t offensive.

I find “ambiguity tolerance” and flipping like a Teflon waffle iron between two opposite positions as different things. My lack of “ambiguity tolerance” helped to define what was improper about the Ways teachings on debt and “the household” and most of what they try to dissect from Corinthians. It also helped me form the requisite logic that I could leave and stake my future on. But you do you.

Another synonym for “telling stories” is “lying” in the sense of being untruthful and replacing a truthful story with a fictional or imagined story.

How is it not? Do you magically gain understanding without any logical reasoning? please explain coherently instead of posting a link underlined sunesis pointing not to any definition of the word but to Carl Sagans argument against religion.

It seems that the best “luck” I will have with logical reasoning would be to avoid those without it. I do not believe the Bible is an anthropological story telling novel. I do not believe that aligns in the least with Prov 2:1-5 that you quoted as your underlying ruling principle. Without the acknowledgment of some kind of divine inspiration influence or other synonym in the Bible then there isn’t much reason to spend reading it. I read the “Epic of Gilgamesh” and was entertained by that story. I don’t view that as equal to the Bible. That is where my logic begins - with the acknowledgment there is something spiritual going on in the Bible. If you don’t believe that than it makes sense you would waffle on your position not use logic and change your beliefs with every passing cool breeze:

I don’t have to even look for that it seems to show up in successive posts - contradiction and inconsistency. I am seeking to logically reason through ideas presented in scripture or derived from scripture. Is not sunesis a logic based reasoning?

In Luke 23:34 it records Christ not forgiving people himself but rather praying to the Father to forgive them. Why?

If Christ is a man who is the son of God only, then Jesus forgiveness from him would not be involved in redemption in the least. It is his life sacrifice on the cross that redeems us. And enables God the Father to forgive and redeem. If Christ has divine elements like many Christians believe then his forgiveness would be involved in redemption indirectly.

This would depend to me on what you mean by “hurt”. Did you “hurt” me by calling me a name on an online forum? Did you “hurt” me by murdering a family member? While liberation from the first is easy and forgiveness would be inconsequential, saying I would be in bondage for giving that second account to God to settle is ludicrous.

So Jesus forgiving people is an apple, but me forgiving people is an orange? Perhaps you need to explain your botanical classification. How are these two things that sound similar but are very different things?

If logic does not form boundaries around our discussions, what framework do you suggest for exchanging ideas? If logic does not form a basis for how you understand life, what does? How do you piece together ideas? Or is it more you just respond off the top of the head with whatever comes into mind at the moment, then justify it later?

Well it seems like the next logical premise after you stated your confidence in how forgiveness was for the individual. If that is true it should logically extend to the purpose for Jesus forgiving people would it not? But instead of following that logic now two posts later you contradict what you were confident in previously.

Yes. As Way Corps I always absorbed the cost. The cost of paying rent on a church that people can act however they want in multiple times a week. They can destroy my property, criticize me, treat my family members poorly, then complain to leadership and I get in trouble. I absorbed the cost of having to quit jobs and find new ones in short periods of time. Of moving across the country but they wouldn't even pay for a motel to spread a trip out after a flunkie says “God wants you rested”. I absorbed the cost of being Way Corps where a large percentage of your group you are in charge of is former dropped Corps or alumni who feel it wasn't fair so have to target you with all their killed dreams. I absorbed the cost of fools in high places making idiotic business decisions that affected me and never apologized but just continued to expect unquestioning obedience at every subsequent idiotic decision. I absorbed the cost of following megalomaniacs for decades. In fact if you had to sum up my experience in Twi it could be done with the words “absorbing cost”. Forgiveness? Like being in a relationship with a narcissist it is a one way street.

The way I look at it I do not think it is logical that God would have an obscure interpretation of salvation verses that prevents a percentage of seekers from becoming born again who desire that. So no I don't think any ones belief regarding the Trinity affects salvation. I do think Wierwilles Trinity explanation and book served to effectively erect a barrier between followers of TWI and all other denominations and community churches that has never been effectively broken down. Twits are seperate and do not collaborate with other Christians at all. This is isolationist and contributes towards the climate of small groups of dictators running everything, the lack of voting privileges in the leadership body, and the general cult like feel of the group. I feel that they live in doctrinal and practical error and are living examples of the eye saying to the hand “I have no need of you” as found in Corinthians the books they purport to be expert in and teaching the world about their take on it.

If forgiveness is a self inflating balloon then you can fly until your walls explode.

What part doesn’t fit? In my experience it was all assumed to be “handled” at the foundational class level and not discussed past then including at HQ and with research dept members I spoke to. Did you interact with people there that covered these 7 points in your research and discussion?

Expanding this discussion again. The major concepts involved with the trinity are: 1. **Monotheism**: Christianity is fundamentally monotheistic, meaning it believes in one God. 2. **Three Persons, One God**: The Trinity teaches that God exists in three distinct persons: the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. These three persons are co-equal and co-eternal, each fully and equally God. 3. **Unity in Diversity**: While there are three persons, they are not separate gods but one God in essence. This is often summarized with the phrase "One God in Three Persons." 4. **Relationship**: The Trinity emphasizes the eternal and loving relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They exist in a perfect, harmonious communion. 5. **Incarnation**: The doctrine of the Incarnation is closely tied to the Trinity. It teaches that God the Son (Jesus) took on human form while still being fully divine. 6. **Role Differentiation**: Each person of the Trinity has distinct roles in the work of salvation. The Father is the creator, the Son is the redeemer, and the Holy Spirit is the sustainer and empowerer. 7. **Mystery**: The Trinity is often described as a divine mystery because it goes beyond human comprehension. It's something that Christians accept on faith, even though it may not be fully understandable. These concepts are foundational to Christian theology, and the Trinity is a central doctrine in most Christian denominations. It's important to note that different Christian traditions may emphasize certain aspects of the Trinity differently. So the Way and VPW mischaracterizes a number of these tenets prior to attacking them. 1. One God - so TWI basically tells mainstream Christians they worship 3 gods not one. They sold bumper stickers saying honk if you worship one god not 3. This belittles the concepts of the other person and causes division. Christians believe in one God despite namecallers. 2. The Way does not accept co equal and co eternal. To TWI the father is greater than the son and the spirit is a gift just an object. 3. Unity in diversity - a completely foreign concept to the Way who wants everyone uniform and Stepford. This concept is beyond their comprehension. 4. Eternal loving relationship - the Way scratches their head as they mostly are responsible for division in the body of Christ, in families, friendships, leaders. 5. Incarnation - again beyond the concepts of the Way who are mostly uneducated as student loan debt is evil. 6. Role Differentiation - again in practice not understood by the Way. You have the caste system in the way. BOD->Clergy->Way Corps->twig coordinator->Adv class grad->layman. Each stays in their category and are not permitted in higher categories. Equality and function differentiation are foreign concepts. 7. Mystery - the Way accepts no mysteries but has to replace them with catch phrases. Fundamentalists project a know-it-all attitude and the Ways noses are 10 degrees higher in the air than fundamentalists impressing themselves with their mental gymnastics. So in summary the trinity as a theological concept and interpretation of scripture is largely unknown by the Way as they discuss it only in the elementary school terminology of VPW and never stray far from his so called “revelation”.

Why would they not sell the FBoi motor coach after all the lawsuits? I mean everything gives off something right? I mean that coach gives off Drambuie Kools and perversion.

Yes I can confirm the email list blast on this postcard. And that they aren’t sending me one lol. Interesting. They are keeping the history of the ministry accurate with their depictions I see. What do they want to portray? The FBus with PFlappy on the side. Do I want to be part of the “movement”? You know the Christian movement where they steal classes act like rock stars and drug and have sex with groupies on a tour bus? Sounds like a movement for leisure suit Larry boomers I’ll pass.

Reviewing this again. My comments are the topic of the trinity within the context of theologians outside of the TWI sphere of influence is complex and nuanced. VPW dumbed it down to a single linear plane view that contains none of these nuances. Then he attacked that perceived Trinity definition with very shoddy explanations for any seeming contradictions. And published a book with a confrontational title. 30 years later followers of the Way, splinter groups, and ex members pretty much still buy into his logic. Arrogant and prideful they elevate themselves above their brothers and sisters in Christ and have made up more perversions of scripture calling Christs body which spans all Christians in I Corinthians as inessential and “household” as the defining boundary around functional Christianity. The true intent of those inventing these perversions is personal gain and control. By these false doctrines they draw away followers of Jesus Christ and isolate them away from other Christians and control them.

He was too busy with creative writing magnifying his trip. First he had to do the key to the city story, then he had to make up the account like Jesus of the man with the withered hand on the train. After that he had to publish his attack on the denominations outreach work in 3rd world countries. After that he had to start a ministry ahead of any disciplinary board convened to talk about his paper and his affair with his secretary. He was just too busy of a guy to teach all the orientalist culture stuff. Besides he could just get Bishop Pillai to do all that work and steal it.

Didn’t say I wasn’t interested in the topic just that it’s off topic and to discuss it on a new thread. You acknowledged in a subsequent post but all posters didn’t read that.

I find certain characteristics of different cults remind me of TWI. The whole Plaffy witnessing running classes to me reminds me of the JWs and their dogged determination to “witness” meaning putting a watchtower pub in someone's hands or referring someone to JW.org that seems pretty similar. The Mormons have all their positions as voluntary like bishops and Q70 or Q12 but demand the tithe out of followers. That to me is similar to the Way how they handle staffing and money. The Way Corps to me seems a lot like Scientology’s Sea Org. A billion year commitment to making the world “clear”. Using people paying them nothing shuffling them around doing the bidding of LRH or Miscavidge. So to me The Way seems like a blend of a number of cult tactics and characteristics. Like a cult souffle.

I enjoyed reading the reviews on Undertow. And the interaction with Karl. Thanks.

Good perhaps if it is important to pay attention to you should start a thread on that topic