Rocky

You make a good point. Perhaps GSC needs a pinned post on every one of its forums that makes it clear beforehand that we have a history of problematic discussion of politics. That could help with people new to the site feeling chastened when the subject does come up. I'm not a moderator here but I was a participant in the dysfunctional conduct when we did have political discussions. I can assure you that WordWolf meant no offense or chastisement to you. A related point, in the In Memoriam forum, we keep posts to be like something people might say in a eulogy at a memorial or funeral service. But in the Open Forum, a discussion could reasonably be had to discuss the pros and cons of the ministry that Billy Graham had through the years. GSC tolerates (even welcomes) disagreement, as long as it doesn't deteriorate into name calling and other such flame war type of posts. So perhaps this thread can be moved by a moderator into the Open Forum for that purpose. Thanks GoldStar for understanding.

As far as I know (not much), you aren't in jeopardy of being banned. However, WordWolf is correct in his explanation of the history and background of why politics isn't a topic for GSC. As to Mr. Graham, I don't know how he will be judged in the hereafter, but I also don't believe speculation on the subject matters much here one way or the other.

I see it as you blaming others for "dragging us back to our former selves." Honestly, nobody can force you to hold on to your former self, or to grow for that matter. I understand that we influence each other's actions, but really nobody is responsible for your actions other than you yourself. I appreciate that you don't want anyone to blame you. But if you want to make the case more convincing, don't try to shift that responsibility to others. Reference Mistakes were made, but not by me. It's fundamental human behavior and a pervasive psychological defense mechanism.

Don't blame anyone else for your choices.

Actually T-Bone quoted Mike. Mike, Mike, Mike... spiritually mature people unlikely to be a pushover for rationalizations? I'd say you've got to be kidding, but sadly, I doubt you are. Earlier, I asked about a definition or description of spiritual maturity. No response from you (or anyone else here... likely because that's bull$hit twi jargon). For you to suggest that "maturity can be easily miscalculated," suggests you believe it is not only not twi jargon but actually an objective phenomenon. Please, by all means, explain to us how to calculate this objective phenomenon so we don't miscalculate it. Perhaps a more objective reality is that EVERY human is subject to falling for The Confidence Game. People (like us) who bought into Wierwille's ministry and pflap DID fall for the con. From the book review link, Wierwille exploited our anxieties too... about eternal life, about truth, about the need for belonging... and then some.

SMH... I have no expectations. But I do have more questions relating to twi/pflap. What is "spiritual maturity?" What does it look like to be spiritually mature? Might that be anything like emotional intelligence?

I tend to agree. Btw (not a response to waysider), I tend to think Mike is in quicksand over his head in this discussion. He can't even recognize rhetorical questions (that answer themselves). It takes me back to when I said something about his quasi-intellectual bull$hit. Mike doesn't even come close to writing as if he has a background of examining anything in detail to suggest he has analytical or research skills on par with academic practitioners.

Glad you added this comment T-Bone.

bump

It's not proof. It's argument. Btw, your argument that all people are dead inside is one paradigm. I believed it 30 - 40 years ago... because Wierwille said that's what the bible meant. I no longer believe that to be the case. I read too much to still accept that paradigm. There are MANY references online to explore that issue. Here's one that I found. I didn't prove anything, but I did present an argument to support what I said I believe... (or don't believe) The significance of this paradigm, as I see it, is that the Wierwille fundamentalist (extremist) mindset is the basis for abusing children and spouses. I regret having bought into that paradigm for far too long. Yes, regrets... I have a few. (I think there's a song about that) I can also say that I'm thankful my daughter (and son-in-law) know(s) better than I did when she was the age my grandchildren are now.

Sorry... not relevant. If you don't want to do the work then don't clamor about what some nebulous other group might say that agrees with you. Invoking the word, "proofs" is again disingenuous and evasive... not only that but in this case, misdirection. Nobody asked you for or demanded proofs. ALL things that you suggest those with whom you discuss/debate go look for what would amount to spelling out your argument, are your responsibility. Think back several weeks to when I told you I believe you are toying with people here. You're doing it again.

Disingenuous and evasive. No, it's not funny; no, what's happening is you pretend to make an argument but don't really make any such argument.

Disingenuous and evasive. If you've got an argument to make about what other Christian denominations say about the issue, make the argument.

This, of course, IS (for the most part) true. I would recommend (and have done so on GSC before) people read The Confidence Game.

"I like learning," in this statement IS evasion. The context is discussion, debate. If you really did like to learn, learn about how to productively conduct yourself in discussions and debates. Your understood expectation is to try to get people to see your side of things. You're not getting the job done. You consistently put more energy and effort into avoiding getting the job done... at least as it pertains to what you post at GSC.

Really? The hydrogen atom is tangible and inherent (and profound) in life as we know it. Declaring it to be trivial is a gross misstatement of biological and chemical reality. Perhaps this is a tangent, but to cite the hydrogen atom as trivial seems to display a profound lack of understanding of the world (and life) around you.

I fail to see how that is relevant to anything.

Verses you did NOT spell out. In presenting (alleged) arguments like that, it's YOUR job to provide links/quotes to claimed "official lines of some large churches." Otherwise, you're just handily being evasive.

I didn't get that from Twinky's post. You seem perfectly capable of ignoring what you don't want to respond to. You do it regularly. No sense blaming it on others.

Why would the thread need to be locked? Just because you can't stay focused on the original intent?

Please don't insult our intelligence. Spell it out. Which verses "line up very nicely" with what? First off, does the bible EVER specifically indicate that Jesus never even told a "white lie?" Or is it blasphemous for me to even raise the question?

I recognize your point in the highlighted text, but just want to point out that Demographic Geography shows that today those two are not mutually exclusive.

And YOUR point taken too. Thank you.

Not a problem. It's always okay to ask for clarification.

Do you have some early Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic text that rightfully translates it that way or are you just deciding that's how it must be according to your private interpretation of PFLAP?