Rocky

How does that preclude malignant narcissism? In a subculture (cult) where he was highly revered (worshiped), would it not be natural for someone to introduce the idea without him explicitly asking for it? That auditorium was named before he died, right? Didn't he feign modesty over it? I don't buy any suggestion that he wasn't fully on board with all the adulation.

but I thought the bible said there's no new thing under the sun?

Hmmmm.... in other words, the word of Wierwille is the will of Wierwille/god?

You're not going to be able to do anything that will open Rosie's eyes. It would take a significant emotional event (significant to her) for her to change any aspect of her values. It's outside of your control. History -- the record of thousands of people in situations similar to yours -- indicates that they will tell others that you're possessed. You can't stop that. It is something you will eventually have to accept and/or let go of.

Not speaking for Karl, but being familiar with Karl's decades long career as a journalist, he didn't write anything to hurt anyone. Journalists write to tell the truth. Journalists, and I have a little bit of experience with this (though not nearly as much as Karl), write because they can't NOT write to tell the story of the truth. The characters in the story are characters in a story. They are not targets. The target is the ears and eyes and understanding of the readers. Take care of your relationship with your wife. From what you've shared, she's apparently not as convinced as you are. Changing hearts and minds in a situation like you're in is not easy and takes time, patience and love.

Obviously, that 's a cult indoctrination tactic. You were wise to be bothered by that song. On guy says, oh, it's about obeying God. But really, that's still outside of what being saved by Grace would actually mean. In practice, it is clearly intended to subliminalize the suggestion to obey "leadership." Screw that.

Does the question assume that all situations involve gravity equivalent to Earth? How does variations in gravity (a variable factor) influence answers to the question? This also goes back to God BEING and able to DO much greater than we can even conceptualize. Which, to me, makes the question about God making a rock that he couldn't lift, absurd on its face.

Lot's of good insight for you, BlueCord, in the comments before mine. One of the most important things that will help you keep from getting sucked back in eventually will be to establish a support network of friends not connected to TWI. That's one of the benefits of connecting with a church near your home. It may be difficult to find one with which you feel comfortable with all of its teachings. That's less important (whether they agree doctrinally with what you learned in TWI) than making solid social contacts. Of course, churches aren't the only places to establish a good, supportive social network. Congratulations on recognizing the organizational problems and being willing to act on your concerns.

I recently saw on Facebook where a Frank Ab****i told his friends he had earned a PhD and one part his dissertation (I think that's what it was) was writing a new expanded translation of Eph. 3:20. Hopefully, he doesn't have a copyright on it, but even if he does, I claim Fair Use. "Now to God, Who is able and ready to perform on behalf of His people, Exceeding far more abundantly than we can think, or conceptualize, in the spiritual realm, in the cosmos,and in the earthly places. All this strength is utilized in accordance with the power of God who worketh in us." What intrigues me about this new translation is the idea that God is ready and able to perform exceeding far more abundantly than we can conceptualize. Well, perhaps the Apostle Paul also realized that God actually also IS far more than we can conceptualize. Not only could s/he DO more, but BE more than we can conceptualize. Which to me lends credibility to several of the comments on this thread, including those by Raf and Steve Lortz... and T-Bone. Because how the hell could we be so narcissistic and arrogant to think we could even come close to ascertaining what God might think about the question posed by Oakspear? And I sure as... the fact that we live on Earth... do not believe that God is limited to what a bunch of computer illiterate sheepherders wrote down two millennia ago or more.

Okay... Allan wants a political forum. He should have one. Of his own making. Not here.

Snowball fight in Phoenix in August....?

How does one liquidate the (millions of dollars worth of) assets of a non-profit corporation?

No doubt a lot of that is or will be in play. As I understand it, from about the time Lindsay was on Dr Phil's show, she was pretty angry with her parents even though her father was at least somewhat remorseful.

Note that our friend Penworks is mentioned in this update. "Charlene L. Edge was invited to give a presentation on April 21, 2016, to a freshman class of religion students taught by Dr. Todd French at Rollins College in Winter Park, Florida. “This was the second time he invited me to share my story with his class; it was the fourth presentation at Rollins. The theme I chose was Cult Control: Let’s Try To Understand. I used my personal story of 17 years in The Way International as a case study to show how high-control groups work, why I was drawn into it, why I stayed so long, the so-called biblical research I did with The Way, and how I escaped. Students asked very good questions."(continued at the link above) Yea Charlene!

Dateline May 18, 2016, (Pine County, MN) Accused cult leader's extradition to Minnesota stopped at last minute "Accused Minnesota cult leader Victor Barnard was all set to be extradited Thursday back to Minnesota from Brazil. Federal Marshals were preparing for the transfer to a jail in Pine County, Minn. And then, suddenly, the deal was off, for now. "Multiples sources tell the FOX 9 Investigators the diplomatic snafu comes down to the precise wording of the extradition agreement. As FOX 9 previously reported, Brazil's Supreme Court said they would only release Barnard to U.S. custody if it is agreed that his sentence, if convicted of the charges in Minnesota, would not exceed 30 years in prison...." continued

Very true.

That's an interesting question, Roy. But it also raises other questions. First, are you suggesting that the rules (keys) to biblical interpretation we learned from Wierwille are the bottom line for determining what is actually God's will (and God's Word)? I'm of the opinion that there's much more to understanding the forces that formed the cosmos, the universe as we know it, and life in all of its forms than what we can glean from the bible. Second, what may look to us -- because of what we've learned thus far in life -- to be idolatry, setting King James up as a god, or an equal with God, may or may not actually be that. Might it just be a cultural deference paid to the guy that commissioned their translation work? I don't know. To answer that question, we might need to understand customs and language from James' era. Nevertheless, I commend you for reflecting on what you read and wondering about the substance and significance of it.

Yeah, he had slaves for anything that took effort.

Yeah, well... since twi is and was then a cult, it took many years for people to recognize the issue, let alone take action on it. I'm confident you know that. I just wanted to articulate it.

Holy CRAP!

Very human, for a person or a group/subculture to define observable phenomena (i.e. behavior) in ways that justify and rationalize them. I have found tremendous insight in Mistakes were made (but not by me). "Social psychologists Tavris and Aronson, each of whom has published other works, here tackle "the inner workings of self-justification," the mental gymnastics that allow us to bemoan the mote in our brother's eye while remaining blissfully unaware of the beam in our own. Their prose is lively, their research is admirable and their examples of our arrogant follies are entertaining and instructive."

Good links. What's even more important is that wikipedia generally is very well footnoted/sourced. And when it's not, it usually says so. Anyway, I've found Ross Rosenberg's videos and writings (online, I haven't read any of his books) to poignantly hit the nail on the head regarding Wierwille and twi.

Schizoaffective disorder -- a condition in which a person experiences a combination of schizophrenia symptoms — such as hallucinations or delusions — and mood disorder symptoms, such as mania or depression. ------ Did he really believe God spoke audibly to him and showed him snow on the gas pumps? If he didn't make that up, then it seems to fit the definition. And there's no question, from observations made by people who spent time with him in the way corpse, that he had mood disorders, likely bipolar.

<iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/x54z2pRAvtg?rel=0" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe> DWBH, you mean kinda like what this guy describes? A malignant narcissist?