Rocky

VeePee liked celebrities... but he didn't hook enough of them to raise his public profile to near the degree that Scientology has. Hence, there's little interest in a similar broadcast video like the series Remini has been doing. But if you run across anyone with deep pockets that wants to do something big to expose fundamentalist cults, check in with Penworks. I'm sure she could get such a project off the ground (if funding were found).

You make good points, even beside spelling out the historical events. For those of us who invested years of our adult lives in twi, it's tempting to be angry about lost time. The fact of the matter is that we are the sum total of our experiences. We can make the most, even of the regrettable experiences. Thanks for making those points.

Skyrider, I'd love to hear about some of "what unfurled and what the public was never told" about the Murrah building bombing (please). Perhaps in a new thread in the open forum.

For those interested in further exploring these sociological issues, here's a website about another bible-based group dealing with those who conceal evil... People of the Lie, Malignant Narcissism: Excerpts from M. Scott Peck's People of the Lie After the Irons left the Geftakys ministry in March, 1990, we dug into George's teaching, his character and his abusive behavior. We wrote articles about it over the years, based on the facts we had at the time. But after George's excommunication from the Fullerton Assembly in January, 2003, it became evident to us that things were a lot worse than we had ever thought. The revelations of his immorality and the cover-up of David's domestic violence were shocking. George's behavior since then of complete denial and scornful impunity, and the devastation we have seen in people's lives, bring to mind parallels with The People of the Lie, a study of malignant narcissism by Dr. M. Scott Peck. In the course of his career as a psychiatrist, Dr. Peck encountered several clients whose malignant narcissism didn't quite fit the categories of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual. In People of the Lie he looks in depth at the characteristics of these individuals. Although a professing Christian, Peck's purpose is not to present a biblical study of evil. Rather, he proposes evil as a diagnosis of pathology for these people. His concept of evil clarifies the nature of malignant narcissism and offers a useful paradigm for understanding George Geftakys and other abusive leaders. Here are quotations from the book, organized under the main characteristics of the people Dr. Peck calls "evil". (continued)

Not necessarily, but you would do well to take your blinders off and consider that you're not always right.

I'm curious, did any of those "meaningful, sensible ways to help them improve their relationship with God" include any form of renouncing who he found himself attracted to? I talk with LGBTQ people frequently. I don't presume to know better than they themselves whether they should renounce their identity or to whom they find themselves attracted. I know what projecting is. How sure are you that it applies to me in this situation? Further, nowhere in my previous comments have I supposed to know or infer anything about you other than to critically assess your words. Read those comments carefully (critical thinking and analysis) and you should be able to tell the difference. If you disagree, by all means, (in a PM, rather than derail this thread) let me know specifically where I've erred. In the meantime, as it applies to the subject of this thread, TWI (as an organization/sub-culture), wierwille and martindale (and many more) had serious deficiencies in social and emotional intelligence including but not limited to failing to recognize and/or respect personal boundaries. I'm not projecting here. I'm reflecting back on my history and experience. I can say with confidence that it took me too long after leaving TWI to learn about and begin respecting said personal boundaries. I have forgiven myself. Those problems caused relationship problems for me, some of which have since healed. I maintain that deficiencies in social and emotional intelligence in TWI are why we are here on GSC. If wierwille hadn't been such a psychological basket case, it's likely that the organization he started (if he still would have started it) would not have been quite as problematic (insane).

I respect Raf's admission. The fact is that ALL of us were conned, at least by Wierwille. Every human is subject to confidence games.

Thank you SO much for verifying my read of your inherently judgmental comment. "PC" as you use it seems to be nothing more than an excuse to label -- those who treat individuals as actual people who are worthy of dignity -- so that you can continue to justify, puff up your chest and feel righteous in judging them. That's bothersome. This might seem like a tangent and off topic, but it really illustrates quite well the underlying insanity (social mores) of the time frame that is the subject of this thread. Outside of religious dogmatism, those mores have changed. Your post seems also to validate the irritation DWBH has expressed toward other comments you've made which have been read as efforts to justify the teachings and practices of our "dear leader" VeePee and his loyal sycophant Loy C Martindale.

Okay, I tried to ignore that comment. But it bugs the hell out of me. In other words, there's a huge amount of cognitive dissonance associated with the phrase, "Returned to former lifestyle." Also, who gives a crap what you've heard? In instances like this, I immediately go, in my mind, to I Corinthians 2:11: "For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God." Be clear TLC, you aren't what bugs me. The statement you made bugs me. First, neither you nor I are qualified to judge Craley about this or any other matter that would assume any knowledge of what goes on in his heart or mind. Second, "former lifestyle" might seem like an innocuous phrase, but it smacks of judgment. Rather than get into a doctrinal p1ssing contest, I'll just say that I believe Wierwille's understanding of homosexuality, homosexual people AND what the bottom line of what the bible has to say about the subject was incomplete. As far as we know, Craley may have decided that to his own self he must be true. It's not something we are qualified to assess, whether it be Cra1ey, Myrac1e or even RFR. We have plenty of other reasons to scorn RFR.

I understand he's on FB. He and I share 17 mutual friends.

Isn't the current pop culture reference to such relationships "bromance?"

All YOU have to do is copy and then paste the URL to the youtube video in a comment here.

One of the defining characteristics of narcissism/narcissists is deficiencies in the capacity for empathy. The same can be said for narcissistic organizations.

That's what a certain very high profile political candidate asked in 2016. We are now learning what we have to lose.

Pardon the skepticism, but we WERE conned so many years ago. Didn't Paul write, "prove all things, hold fast that which is good?" Far more recently, somebody said something to the effect, "fool me once..."

I have no financial stake in this but two days ago returned home from a personal mission to Los Algodones, Baja California, Mexico. A couple of years ago, one of my molars broke and I was having an increasingly difficult time keeping food out of it. A friend (a long time greasespotter, btw) enthusiastically told me about Los Algodones. My Phoenix area dentist gave me an estimate of $4k for a variety of work he said needed to be done to my teeth. I was taken aback. The only acute/urgent matter was a root canal and crown for the broken tooth. For that, around $1,500. (without dental insurance, which would cost me at least $150/month and make me wait a year to get that kind of major work done) I was able to get my teeth cleaned, the root canal performed and the crown installed all for less than $500 (direct cost) and total of 24 hours to get the crown made. Of course, I had a few extra costs, like the passport, automobile fuel and a night's stay in a Yuma hotel. But still saved well more than $500 and I love the way my mouth and teeth feel now. So, if you need dental work, this might be something to consider to get it done far less expensively than you'd pay your hometown dentist. Btw, I went to the Castle Dental clinic and enthusiastically recommend them to you.

This might be a good place to mention that for me, the lifting of (waybrain) fog happened with years of self-reflection while working on developing critical thinking and analysis skills including working during the mid-1980s on a degree in accounting (focus on accountability) and in the early 1990s learning to (begin) being honest with myself with insights in M. Scott Peck's books, (first one I read was People of the Lie, followed by The Road Less Traveled). I apologize for going off on a tangent.

Winning through Intimidation (1984) by Robert J Ringer I remember this book from 32 years ago. I wonder how many TWI clergy read and embraced the notion.

Summer 1975.

Thanks, I had figured it out.

Ah... thanks for the clarification.

Was?

Really, oatmeal with one tablespoon of flax seed daily with do the trick.

One very like cause of the link not working on your devices is that the teacher page is no longer there. But the site still works.

For a number of reasons! ;)