Rocky

Yeah, I get your point. Certainly to be a helping professional would have taken an advanced degree. But the a BS in psych, he would know enough to design cultic group directions and norms and mores. And we know how those all turned out.

Clever. Don't forget that The Forehead's undergraduate degree was in psychology.

Put another way, hindsight is 20/20. If only there could be a way to have that hindsight on the front end, eh? Indeed, I don't see how they could even conceptualize any kind of informed consent. There's no way the cult would agree with what we understand about them after years of involvement and then leaving. Too subjective.

I agree completely. In the 1990s, I was involved with a church fellowship. For a while, it was helpful. I had a close relationship with one of the pastors and shared with him my twi background. He had known other former wayfers in Wyoming. Eventually, I grew out of that situation also. I don't feel the need these days for being involved in a Christian fellowship. I recognize Juedes' bias in that regard and put it in the same perspective that you described. <3

I agree, the traffic noise was incredibly obnoxious. But I am very thankful he recorded the video. I love that he directly addresses waybrain.

Go for it. See what happens.

An . <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/mUPubonKLFM?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> I tried to embed the video... couldn't figure it out. But the link in the first line should work.

Wouldn't matter if there was. First amendment, ya know. It would be an extremely difficult thing to put any kind of parameters or legal limitations other than already existing laws that address issues not necessarily inherent to religious worship, like polygamy or human sacrifice. If some practice comes up that requires society deal with it, that practice would be targeted rather than the religion.

Different usages of the word.

Well, I don't think I ever had to deal with the two by two scenario, but... Yeah, those reproof verses were a big deal from way back. Thirty to forty years of hindsight makes me realize just how faulty even some seemingly practical NT scriptures can be. On its own, and using no other sources of insight for practical wisdom, that practice was inherently emotionally abusive. What was missing included (but was not necessarily limited to) recognition of the inherent worth of the individual being confronted. That makes the waybrain application inherently narcissistic. The whole concept that I have a right to challenge anything that offends me (anything I don't like) is complete crap. Because the founder of the cult was a narcissistic megalomaniac, he demonstrated, and how many thousands of people imitated, that pattern of conduct? Take it back to Matthew 22: 36-39. What about the biblical principle of forebearance? My recollections of V Pee and of The Forehead do not include many specific incidents of forebearance.

Great quote. I -- LOVE -- being a contrarian. And I'm passionate about it. :)

The 9th and 7th corpses were in residence at the time. I don't remember VPee's words about it, but I distinctly remember Loy ranting on about it and recognizing right away that we would be labeled a cult because of Jim Jones. Of course, Loy vehemently denied we had any cultic characteristics...

My hunch is that among his concerns is the growing trend toward Dominionism in US churches. I took a brief look at his website. I don't see him emphasizing anything that would link to a fundamentalist perspective.

And quite narcissistic.

Have you seen this article? What do you think about it? A pastor's emancipation from American Christianity I used to think that it was just me, that it was my problem, my deficiency, my moral defect. It had to be. All those times when I felt like an outsider in this American Jesus thing; the ever-more frequent moments when my throat constricted and my heart raced and my stomach turned. Maybe it came in the middle of a crowded worship service or during a small group conversation. Maybe while watching the news or when scanning a blog post, or while resting in a silent, solitary moment of prayer. Maybe it was all of these times and more, when something rose up from the deepest places within me and shouted, "I can't do this anymore! I can't be part of this!" These moments once overwhelmed me with panic and filled me with guilt, but lately I am stepping mercifully clear of such things. What I've come to realize is that it certainly is me, but not in the way I used to believe. I am not losing my mind. I'm not losing my faith. I'm not failing or falling or backsliding. I have simply outgrown American Christianity. continued at the link above

The link -- in the TWI wiki page -- to the eternally blessed website is incorrect. The actual working link (at this time) is here.

Gotta have some propaganda to keep the serfs in check, even if they do have computers and a little bit of curiosity. ;)

I have to disagree with you. From the early 1970s (when I first became involved with twi), there WERE people who attempted to stand up to VPee. They were heavily attacked. They left the organization. Those who remained, in my estimation, did not realize just how messed up the entire subculture was. It took me until 1986 and obtaining a bachelor's degree in accounting for me to even begin to realize there were problems. I left with the major exodus. But as a 19-year old (when I first came in contact with the group), I didn't know better. At that time (1986), there was a handful of clergy and other leaders who took a strong stand. Belt, T Reahard, JALVIS, Pierce and R.A.D. The stand they took was life changing. They all were heavily vilified and attacked (verbally for the most part) for it. The organization closed ranks, which it was able to do by controlling the news and information available to "twig leaves" until the advent of the internet. Even then, cult tactics kept (and still do), out of fear, some people from even daring to question the culture. No, we who left and reclaimed our lives didn't fail. We succeeded. We had no responsibility to do any more than we could or have to undermine the evil that keeps people in emotional bondage.

I was talking with a friend the other day who had visited a fellowship Earl Burt*n held in Virginia recently. This friend was impressed... in a NOT good way... by how now 30 years after Wierwille died and nearly as long ago as all the offshoots started "the exodus," this fellowship meeting was run exactly the same as the stale old fellowships in the mid-1980s. The decor -- classic Wierwille worship -- included portraits of VPee on the walls and chairs arranged in rows (probably using string lines to ensure they were straight). Cornucopias for "abundant sharing." I asked this friend if it looked like there were any young (new) people there. S/he said it looked only like perhaps grown children of former wayfers. NO effing way I could sit through one of those meetings anymore without some visceral physical reaction.

Some outstanding comments. I saw this happen to me in a post-twi workplace situation I was in... I was, in that situation, involved in labor organizing. The source material provided by Waysider is poignant and brings back vivid memories to me.

I get your point... but would instead characterize it as dishonorable mention. ;)

Good one Chocky...

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