Rocky

Bam! Nailed it.

Is this analogous to the Schrodinger's cat conundrum?

Isn't that what the singing was all about? Oh... and waysider, thanks for the earworm! :confused:/>

I wish I could take two hours to listen to that podcast. But after just a few minutes of Sam Harris, I don't think I could get all the way through it. But I'll see if I can find something more succinct with Mr. Murray.

Didn't intend any sarcasm. I'm thinking now that perhaps I'm just not reading your intent, unless you specify it as such, to be addressing only people you believe are still in twi who might be reading this thread. Even at this point, I'm just guessing that's what your trying to do. Be it far from me to say what it will or won't take to reach any individual to actually get them to give serious consideration to the fact that they've made life choices that they might want to refute now or in the future. However, before I even left twi, I was (in the mid-1980s) finally buckling down to get my bachelor's degree. I took Sociology 101 as an elective. The one thing I remember most vividly now from that class 30 years ago is that for adult humans to change values (in general) takes them experiencing a significant emotional event. Because I now write about politics (on my personal blog), I can see the application to people's political values. Arguing rational and logical points on any given issue (extremely) rarely causes any voter to change how they look at a candidate or an issue. That's why politicians (especially demagogues) use emotions like fear to motivate.

Sure, we can reference academic material but really all any of us can do authoritatively is tell the stories of our own experiences and those we have observed. Unless I'm missing something.

Great insight. By the way, I had a close friend who had spent years on HQ staff, who then went out WOW, ended up getting divorced and leaving twi. He and I rented a house together for a year in the 1980s. He explored an organization founded on that concept. He went through peer counseling. He seemed to appreciate the insight and change it brought to his life but he never tried to get me to get involved with it. Apparently, the organization is still around. But it's not perfect and I've found critiques of it online also.

Yup. I concur with skyrider's analysis.

Did it matter what you thought? Not necessarily. From a practical perspective, however, if you are wanting out of twi as a minor near the age of majority, what you can communicate about your personal affinity for the cult can make a difference in how people respond to you when they learn of your family connection. I apologize for referencing NK, if that's an issue for you. I figure that whereever you were, the people knew about twi. That's what I was referencing.

I get that. As a young person growing up in twi, you may not have had the knowledge/wisdom (please don't take offense) to tell those non-twi people that you really don't buy into what the cult believes. In Tucson, for young adults on a college campus, it's much different than in small town NK. I heard also (different subject), that Pope Francis endorsed the idea of taxing churches that don't help the needy. I think that's a great idea.

does it rhyme with spit?

The update story in the Daily Star has a lot more background, including insight on recognizing problem groups and helping people who have been impacted by them.

Then yesterday, the Arizona Daily Star updated the March 2015 story, The holidays weren’t always happy for Doug Pacheco, but this year he feels blessed by a season of forgiveness. For years, Pacheco says his family suffered because of his unquestioning devotion to the leaders of Faith Christian Church, which encouraged corporal punishment of infants, unquestioning obedience to church leaders and mandatory tithing even by families in financial distress. He shared his story last spring as part of an Arizona Daily Star investigation into the Tucson-based ministry that’s been recruiting members on the University of Arizona campus for more than 20 years. Twenty-one former followers described the church as a cult that targets UA students and inflicts financial, spriritual and emotional abuse. New parents were trained to start spanking babies soon after birth to rid them of “rebellious” spirits, the former members and staffers said. They often used cardboard dowels from wire clothes hangers to hit infants who wouldn’t sleep, then switched to other implements as children grew, they said. Pacheco, who joined Faith Christian’s predecessor church and left in 1990, said he and his then-wife accepted the church’s teachings. When the Star’s initial story ran in March, Pacheco — now remarried and living in Indiana — emailed links to the story to each of his children, now 33, 31 and 29. “They knew just by me sending that article that dad is facing up to something here,” Pacheco, 58, said in a recent phone interview. “I got to call each of my children and tell them I loved them and apologize to them. “Each of them said, ‘We love you, we forgive you, we’re with you.’ Ever since that time, my relationships with all three of them has just improved.”

Actually, as a blogger and former journalist, the motivation for many people is simply to tell the story. Get the word out. Their own stories, good and bad. As to whether twi is the only cult that gets exposed, definitely not. Just today, I saw a tweet with a link to a story about a cult in Tucson, AZ that has been "affiliated with" the University of Arizona. I suspect the affiliation is simply that the group has permission to meet on campus. "Back in March, I posted about how Faith Christian Church, which has operated on the campus of the University of Arizona for decades now, was essentially a criminal-led cult. "That was according to 30 former members and employees (and their parents) who said it took a long time to get over what happened to them. Carol Ann Alaimo and Emily Bregel of the Arizona Daily Star wrote this at the time: Their stories include reports of hitting infants with cardboard tubes to encourage submission, financial coercion, alienation from parents, public shaming of members and shunning of those who leave the church or question its leaders. Some say that since leaving, they’ve spent years in therapy for panic attacks, depression, flashbacks and other symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder. From the Arizona Daily Star: The University of Arizona is investigating a religious group that more than 20 former members and staffers describe as a cult. Faith Christian Church, which is led by a self-proclaimed former criminal, has operated on the UA campus for 25 years. It is initially welcoming, then slowly imposes control over most facets of members’ lives, an Arizona Daily Star investigation found. The Star interviewed 21 former employees and church members — most of them UA alumni — and nine of their parents. Their stories include reports of hitting infants with cardboard tubes to encourage submission, financial coercion, alienation from parents, public shaming of members and shunning of those who leave the church or question its leaders. Some say that since leaving, they’ve spent years in therapy for panic attacks, depression, flashbacks and other symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder. Methods the church has used, as described by former members and staffers, meet all five warning signs for “religious practices gone awry” listed on the website of the UA’s University Religious Council. “The best word I can think of is ‘insidious.’ It starts off subtle,” says ex-member Scott Moore, 32, who graduated from the UA in 2005 with a degree in agriculture. Moore says his self-esteem hit rock bottom after he joined Faith Christian in 2000 at age 17. Church leaders’ criticism and authoritarianism caused him near-constant anxiety during his five years as a member, he says. Some ex-members and their parents say the UA should have acted long ago to investigate the church and the campus ministries it lists as affiliates: Wildcats for Christ, Native Nations in Christ and the Providence Club. But the university must abide by an Arizona law requiring all state agencies to “neither inhibit nor promote religion,” says Melissa Vito, the UA’s senior vice president in charge of student affairs.

Wow... you presented some interesting philosophical questions. They bring back and remind me of some of your earlier comments on other threads and help clarify your reasons for the obscure wording. It's reasonably easy to recognize how, from your perspective, those things should have remained a mystery. OTOH, life isn't always what we'd like it to be. As author M Scott Peck wrote, in the first line of his book The Road Less Traveled, "Life is difficult." He goes on to explain that when we recognize and realize that, we learn to cope with the difficult times. I've mentioned the role Peck's writing played in my recovery from twi in comments on gsc before. I doubt we'd be able to resolve your philosophical questions in a discussion on gsc, but I commend you for bringing the subject up. It may or may not help to also consider that progress, especially technological innovation, cannot be stopped.

Who do you think was blaming you? I don't think I saw anyone here doing so. Rosie may have been 34, but that was a long time ago.

Good grief. There were LOTS of wayfers who used tobacco when I was still involved. A big deal was also made about a two drink limit regarding alcohol. That's not necessarily a bad thing. However, when we examine the outreach areas where VPee's influence started growing -- Rye, NY and San Francisco in the last 1960s/70s, I'm confident you'll find a much more relaxed attitude. Marijuana, btw, has been shown since then to be much safer than alcohol.

Yeah, and the radical Islamic jihadi suicide bomber gets 70 virgins after doing the deed. It's all psychological manipulation. TWIts read about "the hope" and knew they had a mechanism to manipulate.

Most definitely.

I agree with the thesis of the OP in this thread. Sleep deprivation is an obvious tool for psychological manipulation. However, I'm not so sure us "old folks" can rightfully blame current inability to sleep more than 5 hours at a stretch on twi. I have similar sleep issues and understand them primarily to be related to aging.

Dude, it WAS and is all an illusion. :)

Perhaps not, but on other threads, I did. And I stand by that claim. WordWolf explains some of why that is actually the case.

That damn salt covenant! ----- edit, looked up salt covenant. Wikipedia includes a book published by American Christian Press (twi) as a source. How right you are, Steve.

Yeah, I get your point. Certainly to be a helping professional would have taken an advanced degree. But the a BS in psych, he would know enough to design cultic group directions and norms and mores. And we know how those all turned out.

Clever. Don't forget that The Forehead's undergraduate degree was in psychology.