Rocky

I have to disagree with you. From the early 1970s (when I first became involved with twi), there WERE people who attempted to stand up to VPee. They were heavily attacked. They left the organization. Those who remained, in my estimation, did not realize just how messed up the entire subculture was. It took me until 1986 and obtaining a bachelor's degree in accounting for me to even begin to realize there were problems. I left with the major exodus. But as a 19-year old (when I first came in contact with the group), I didn't know better. At that time (1986), there was a handful of clergy and other leaders who took a strong stand. Belt, T Reahard, JALVIS, Pierce and R.A.D. The stand they took was life changing. They all were heavily vilified and attacked (verbally for the most part) for it. The organization closed ranks, which it was able to do by controlling the news and information available to "twig leaves" until the advent of the internet. Even then, cult tactics kept (and still do), out of fear, some people from even daring to question the culture. No, we who left and reclaimed our lives didn't fail. We succeeded. We had no responsibility to do any more than we could or have to undermine the evil that keeps people in emotional bondage.

I was talking with a friend the other day who had visited a fellowship Earl Burt*n held in Virginia recently. This friend was impressed... in a NOT good way... by how now 30 years after Wierwille died and nearly as long ago as all the offshoots started "the exodus," this fellowship meeting was run exactly the same as the stale old fellowships in the mid-1980s. The decor -- classic Wierwille worship -- included portraits of VPee on the walls and chairs arranged in rows (probably using string lines to ensure they were straight). Cornucopias for "abundant sharing." I asked this friend if it looked like there were any young (new) people there. S/he said it looked only like perhaps grown children of former wayfers. NO effing way I could sit through one of those meetings anymore without some visceral physical reaction.

Some outstanding comments. I saw this happen to me in a post-twi workplace situation I was in... I was, in that situation, involved in labor organizing. The source material provided by Waysider is poignant and brings back vivid memories to me.

I get your point... but would instead characterize it as dishonorable mention. ;)

Good one Chocky...

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Twi spends money. It helps the local economy. Business leaders have a way of overlooking the imperfections of any institution that provides any degree of economic stimulus. It is not a validation of whether or not twi spiritually abuses its followers.

He's been dead for three decades. I don't know that you can get any current observable evidence of charisma from him. That said, it's quite easy to look back and agree with you on the main point you make. In my personal interactions with him, he was overbearing and mean. Not at all charismatic. But it was clear he had established an organization that worshiped him. Were you building up to something? Perhaps to question whether he could fit the profile of a psychopath/sociopath because he wasn't charismatic? He could be charming, especially to young women... to an extent and for a time. Most of us who were in the way corpse seem to have lived to look back and wonder what we ever saw in him that would make us trust him.

Word! (btw, not "The Word.")

Then in the mid-1990s -- BAM! -- along came the internet and VPee's protegé never knew what hit him... so to speak. Have you ever wondered why the twi corporate culture evolved the way it did? NFWay would Wierwille have been able to get away with that crap for as long as he did he had the world wide web to contend with back then.

Would not know? Hmmm... "For now we see through a glass, darkly..." I Cor 13:12

VERY intriguing discussion. Thanks, Steve Lortz, for posing the question. Of course, I've questioned my faith. I've come to the conclusion (at least for now), that the Bible is primarily a creation myth that provides a way for people to meaningfully structure their lives. That doesn't mean I am atheist or even that I reject Christianity altogether. But I do believe that the force that started all of what we now know to be the universe... or the cosmos... is much bigger than what our human minds can conceive and understand. I appreciate intellectual discussions like this because -- unlike the cult from which we emerged -- nobody is taking the "I'm right, you're wrong" angle. There's just too dang much about life that we don't know... and that many of the Ancients may never even have imagined. So, thank you (again) Steve. And thank you Raf, for your thoughtful contributions... and everyone else. :)

Which organizational structure was completely bass-ackward from that depicted in the Book of Acts.

That would be the white + sign in the green circle in the lower right corner of the comment.

Brilliant!

Unlike many internet quotes, this one actually has a source citation, at the linked page. This, of course, for those willing to apply some critical analysis, goes to wierwille's claims of authority in the PLAF class...

What a wonderful sentiment... the verse in Proverbs, that is. I've been listening to Brene Brown on youtube lately. She's a research professor who studies shame and vulnerability. Is it ever too late in a person's life to learn to be vulnerable? Can one actually minister powerfully if that person is not willing to be vulnerable?

Amen and AMEN! ... for all the reasons you mentioned.

Or maybe it's just a WAG... as someone used to say (was it Raf?) or maybe it's just egregious hyperbole used for self-aggrandizement.

Translated into English, "I wasn't interested in what you had to say, so I will condescendingly dismiss it out of hand rather than asking for clarification."

The more I think about it, the more I can't help but conclude that trying to get people to stop venting about spiritual abuse that the person has been subjected to -- by reciting either bible verses or a gentle preacher from two centuries ago -- completely glosses over the validation of the person. You know, the "believer" who has been expected to behave in a certain way by "leadership." That's simply a continuation of self-justifying rationalizations, the pattern for which was set in our minds by vpee. It was vpee who prolifically used bible verses to rationalize his lockbox theology, which empowered his lascivious lifestyle of alcoholism, sexual predation, conning money out of hardworking people who had to live with other people just to make ends meet, and oh, yes, expecting adulation whenever and wherever he went to teach da verd. Jon Touchstone, that entire scheme repulses me and has for a long time.

As has been stated/asked by others... what's your point? Other than telling DWBH to STFU? And what if those who aren't interested -- in any longer delegating our responsibility to critically analyze -- just continue to analyze and expound? Pedantic indeed. And devoid of anything meaningful... Bible verses don't make for valid arguments, generally. That's also not what I understood their purpose (of the bible verses) to be anyway.

That seems to be a dubious assumption.

Prove all things, hold fast that which is good... ? Come on, who is really suggesting we again, 40 years after some of us first delegated our right to critically analyze all things religion to a con man, that we continue on the path of deception based on the entertainment value of jalvis and his partners in crime? Perhaps there is wisdom we (or anyone so inclined) can glean from the writings of William Channing, but I'm not so sure it's a fitting admonition for addressing the tone of this thread. "In opposition to traditional American Calvinist orthodoxy, Channing preferred a gentle, loving relationship with God." The subject of this thread isn't, and please excuse me if I'm wrong, about a relationship with God.

Even if celebrants was used, it still would be in passive voice. News stories generally are not written that way... by anyone who has taken any journalism classes, anyway. Well, your comment is up right now, but I doubt it will be up there past 8:30 am Ohio time.