Rocky

I look back and realize that my identity really began to form in high school. The extracurricular activities I participated in (mainly drama and choir... expressive arts), and some (like athletics) I only tried to participate in, were a big part of who I would become. One semester of college and I realized I wasn't really prepared for that experience, so I enlisted. While overseas, stuck on an island in the Atlantic, I first became involved with twi. The military culture put limits on the development of my self, my identity and my personality. Yet, when it came time to decide whether to re-up, I knew I was too independent for that life. Up to that point, twi wasn't a limiting factor for me. It was just good fellowship and going to a couple of ROAs... which were fun overall. Then there was the way corpse. One year in residence, leaving during interim year, then a wow year in northern Ohio. It was only then, with an 11th corpse wow family coord, that I began to realize how much bulls*it it was and that the organization was all about demanding obedience. Key word: began. I remained involved with twi after the wow year when I finally settled down to get my bachelor's degree. Friends returned from that year's ROA and started talking about the poop paper. That was 1986. Continued fellowshipping with many of the same (also now former twi people) in an independent fellowship... but it was the same format as twig. Eventually realizing that we were just doing the same thing over and over and over... for years. How freaking boring. My degree is in accounting and during my senior year at ASU, I began to realize that accountability in twi was bass-ackward from how it was in Acts. When I began reading books written by M Scott Peck, notably The Road Less Traveled, I was able to restart my own personal emotional development. Accountability remains a key concept for me as I have been following and involved in politics, including three years in a journalistic organization, for the last two and a half decades. Accountability in government and politics is a driving passion in my life. I've had some influence in some situations. I've learned that taking on the responsibilities of citizenship is both work (in some instances, hard work) and yet, very fulfilling. Btw, I struggled a lot with a condescending attitude for years, partly because I grew up with relatives telling me I was bright, partly because the culture in twi was that we were always right. Truly, people you'd like to be friends with often can't stand it when you're being condescending. I try to be humble these days... don't always succeed. Does that answer the question?

Conceptually, from vpee's observed behavior, the more blatant and obvious intentions were money, adulation and sex. I don't know that we've had people discuss any open or public statements that he may have made suggesting otherwise. "That leads me to think it's more than incidental..." is a statement based on your inference. I'm not suggesting you are either right or wrong. Just pointing out that it's an inference. Given that he was still "in charge" at the time of the Jonestown mass suicide, I suspect he would have been careful not to put himself in the same box of public perception as Jim Jones.

Nailed it.

And then there's the passage in John 16:33 where Jesus tells his disciples that regardless of anything else, s*it happens. “I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.” NIV And wasn't there a retemory verse from Isa 26:3 "You will keep in perfect peace those whose minds are steadfast, because they trust in you." Did Loy really trust God? My hunch is that this verse in Isaiah wasn't there for condemnation but perhaps as encouragement.

Almost thou persuadeth me... er, well really I should say that pretty much, thou hast persuaded me that the Bible is just one big story that provides (probably) billions of people with something around which to provide meaning to their lives and provide meaning to this life. When I was 20, there were people, my elders (not in my church or cult) just people who had lived a couple of decades longer than I had at that time. These folks suggested to me that truth was relative and that there are many ways to "find God." Of course, VPee addresses that issue head on in the FLAP class. Over the course of the last 40 years, so much more of life, and discussions like we see on this thread, have convinced me that there probably ARE many ways to get to heaven, if there is or will be such a thing (or place). Seriously, it has become so obvious that johniam is either a tremendous poser (pretending to be such a twi dogmatist) or is a complete loon. I say that with respect. There's no indication I see in your writing here, john, that your life is out of control in any way. It's just that your writing shows a worldview that I find so completely bizarre. OTOH, Steve L makes a solid argument with most everything I've seen him post (especially on this thread). But I can't help but wonder/realize that, in the context of myths (many myths are true, but as I understand it now, they all are stories that help people understand social and psychological aspects of life). I wonder how genuinely it really matters who is right? Granted, I accept that the common understanding at gsc about our common experience with twi is that twi was not a genuine heavenly utopia, rather a subculture built on a charismatic, narcissistic and perhaps psychopathic character's storytelling. But other than that, what does it really matter which meaning a given greek word is correct?

Here's another... Proverbs 23:7. thanks for those verses, Twinky.

Well, that's not at all related to the question. However, vpee was the one in the spotlight pretty much all of the time and put himself out there as the "MOG." There's LOTS of reflection in the GSC forums on his actions. I'd say to you, "nice deflection," because that's what your response is. But it's not nice. Instead, it constitutes an invalid argument and apparent lack of understanding of emotional and social intelligence.

Why would you even care what anyone thinks of you? Again, what gives you the right, or even just the "insight" to know what's in someone else's heart?

John, there's plenty of subjectivity when you're unfamiliar with how objective criteria on cults squarely marks this subculture for what it really is.

In addition to all the other points made about the twi "rationale" for abortion, it all goes back to the underlying concept for ALL of wierwille's private interpretation of scripture: self-justifying rationalization. I don't believe that contradicts any of the things mentioned by others in response to MRAP's question. Tying it back to the main thread topic/title, compared to wierwille's lusts -- money, sex and power -- ALL of it trivialized EVERYone except him. That's how I see it, anyway.

Some big, fat claims in that brief paragraph. And not one of those claims has any factual basis. Okay, we all might reasonably accept that more than 100k souls took the PLAF class. But "top 5 most dangerous religious cults?" Perhaps that was just snark. But in the context you set forth, I don't know how your "Satan was very concerned about us" is snarky. "People actually got delivered from many things." Vague, subjective and without any reference point that can reasonably be taken seriously. There's more... but why bother. "let's deal with reality!?" Do you mean some obnoxiously unscripted television show? Because you didn't present any other kind of reality.

As far as I know, the only one in that list who has REALLY and truly abandoned the twi mindset is Ralph D. Several others who are on facebook still try to make a living by doing their own (offshoot) ministry thang or some variation on that theme. In fact, I saw very recently that Wrenn was recruiting for some bible class he wanted to start teaching.

Links provided for reader convenience. I've written about psychopathic politicians (other than on gsc) and agree completely.

After reading King's time travel novel last winter, I've become a fan. He's brilliant. :evildenk:/>

TWI still operates the Gunnison property, regardless of who holds legal ownership. A couple of my 9th corpse bruddahs visited it this summer and took some pics because one of them knew somebody that was in charge at the time. The property is impeccably well kept, not as rustic as it was back in the day and... hauntingly vacant.

In Arizona, those points are also used to increase premiums for liability insurance. http://azdot.gov/mvd/driver-services/driver-improvement/points-assessment Google is a wonderful thing... most of the time. ;)

Lot's of great insight in that reflection. LOTS.

1) Wierwille disposed of dissenters just as quickly and vehemently as Loy did. Loy, however, was more bombastic about it. 2) Are you suggesting that we should excuse twi's dark side because "everybody has one?"

Criticism can be healthy... if the foundation of that which one criticizes is legitimate to begin with. Regarding cults, the concept of criticism is anathema because exclusion of critical thinking is a critical success factor for cults from the start. If wierwille had not suppressed criticism, he wouldn't have been able to build the abusive subculture that was and is The Way International.

Yes, as a matter of fact, I do. I recently read a book of short stories written by E. L. Doctorow. One of the stories is about a cult and cult leader. The story title is Walter John Harmon. It was published in the New Yorker magazine in May 2003. I'm confident former wayfers will find a few parallels between the story and their experience in twi.

From the article, it appears that the mayor couldn't pray his townsfolk into approving a tax hike to cover the cost of street maintenance. This tangent could get political, so let me disclaim from the start. I see it as a problem with the guy's understanding of his god. As I read it, the potholes presented the mayor with an obvious dilemma. He apparently decided to believe the Almighty Paving Crew and Street Fixers would take care of it. Might it have been more prudent for the mayor to ask God for wisdom and the ability to move the hearts (and/or minds) of his constituents instead (to brainstorm ideas on how to solve whatever underlying problem was occurring in the town government?

Stark.

And then there's the verses in II Corinthians about a cheerful giver. Hard to be cheerful when you understand the organization to be as your comment described. However, it IS available to be a cheerful giver when one has an abundance of money and is thoughtful (conscious) about finding places to give where you can feel confident that good works will be accomplished with what you donate. I really never saw that to be the case with twi. A full 40 years ago, while stationed overseas in the US military, I had actually started to save some money for when I finished my active duty. But, because a fool and his money were soon parted, twi had my savings before I became a civilian. It wasn't difficult to talk a 20-year old airman out of money on the basis of "it will help move the word over the world." A noble goal. But this (then) twenty-year old didn't have much understanding of the ways of the world and lecherous cult leaders in 1975.

Would love to see a balance sheet and cash flow statement. Oh, and an explanation of the $1,000.00 deduction.

Did your four-year old exercise power, or did God? I suspect that in most instances, we really don't think about that question. It's certainly not a phenomenon that's easy to figure out.