Rocky

Hi Garth... Penworks may not want to boast or brag or even suggest she knows better than anyone else but... She and he husband have done actual academic research (including in many places, not in the USA) that probably did an excellent job of informing her understanding of the items on that list. Yeah, I know how that can be. However, a different -- also legitimate -- usage of the word cult DOES fairly describe Rocky Horror Picture Show. Obviously, two totally different meanings.

So, I'm readinga story this evening about documentarian Alex Gibney's latest project, an in-depth expose of Scientology, and found this paragraph: "But he feels that the message of this film applies well beyond Scientology or any one organization. "You can see how abusive institutions get when they have a lot of power and money and when they become guided by a small group of people at the top, perhaps even one person," he says. And then there's a theme that resonates across any number of religions: "It's really hard-wired into all of us, the psychology of wanting to find certainty in faith that allows you to do the most reprehensible things because you believe the ends justify the means." I REALLY like the expression "prison of belief." I think it describes cults very well... including the one we (here at gsc) have in common.

And that could be why many of us just don't go to ANY church or fellowship/ministry and some have even renounced Christianity. I know that I went to a non-denominational church for a couple of years in the 1990s. I had to consciously overlook anything having to do with the trinity... Eventually, even that church, which has some wonderful people, grew tedious for me.

Indeed. But I would suggest that you'd find the book I linked to in an earlier comment to be interesting and would expand your insight on the subject.

As you suggest, we were complicit. That's indisputable. But Garth, how much study of the science of brainwashing have you done?

Because the decision would be founded on a rational analysis, rather than the sunk cost fallacy.

Excellent point. Here's a free (except for the time required to read, watch lecture videos and complete assignments) and convenient way to begin exploring how to recognize fallacies and develop critical thinking skills. MOOC on Coursera.org:Think Again -- How to Reason and Argue. I don't know what Garth may have been getting at, but Brainwashing HAS been scientifically explored. That's what's in the book, the link to which I posted in a previous comment.

Did I say "the book says you were brainwashed?" The book describes and details the science behind the phenomenon. It didn't tell me anything about me or our experience.

Brainwashing Guess what fellow former wayfers, it appears we were brainwashed.

It also was "enchantment."

Fair Use law is not as strict as the gsc policy. Basically, posting it (an article) here about narcissism could not be a copyright violation because nobody here is trying to make money off of the article and gsc does not represent competition for the source's publication.

I get your point, now, I think.... well, maybe at least a little bit. In the minds of many of the people you know or knew in or from TWI, Wierwille is simply a myth. A story around which their church revolves. And that makes sense, to me anyway. Of course, to those of use now in our 50s and 60s, many of us did know him and have direct interaction with him. To us, he's not just a myth, but also a series of memories.

You may not have been asking for any reason other than posing a rhetorical question, but it actually is spelled H Y P O C R I S Y. :)

Yes, strength of character is important. And is not a function of one's personal relationship with Jesus (or the bible).

Thanks for sharing your insight. :)

There's no doubt power/authority over others is a hallmark. How that power is a function of self and group dynamics is something that can be studied and insights developed.

I just found this book which may provide key insight on the topic of this thread: Brainwashing: the science of thought control.

It's also a bogus nugget to build a ministry on. Is life really all about a fight between good and evil?

Wierwille was a prick and a charlatan from the word go. Plenty of us struggled to figure out if he started out with honorable intent. I've come to the perspective that no, from the time he started rebelling against the denomination that originally ordained him he had the intent to build an organization that he was the focus, focal point and the entire reason for its existence. All or most of us idealistic youth who got caught up in his scheme probably had honorable intentions from the start. But that's how things go in cults. Penworks posted an interesting link to a you tube channel in the cult prevention thread. I watched one of the videos and it sounded like most of the people telling their stories could have been us.

Thanks for that link. This video clip, " " is particularly poignant.

I care. I just don't personally have the resources to do anything about it. I also don't think a knee jerk military response would necessarily either solve anything or do any good. Solutions to major world complex problems generally require studied, complex, rational consideration before rushing off half-cocked into another endless war. Solutions to major societal problems at home also require rational consideration and investigation into root causes before potentially successful attempts to solve those problems can be formulated. It's been a LOOOOOONG time since I believed Johnny Townsend's BS about everything in and about life being simple.

Excellent analysis, IMO. Thanks for articulating it. Group norms. And yes, Stockholm Syndrome.

I find the expression, "the world shrugs" intriguing. While one inference (Raf stated) indicates your disapproval (Skyrider) of the Ferguson protests, I see much more to that expression. Whether you mean it or not is certainly something you can clarify. I don't pretend to be able to read minds. I do, however, read words. "The world shrugs" suggests you believe somebody (we?) should do something about the attack in Pakistan. What response, by whom, paid for by whose tax dollars, do you believe would be the appropriate response? Btw, your declaration "people seemingly disturbed by a grand jury verdict wherein forensic evidence upheld a police officer in Ferguson, MO defending himself from assault" reveals a lot too. First, you've apparently passed judgment that a black teenager in an economically depressed community who seemingly committed a misdemeanor offense was rightfully executed. If that's not what you meant, by all means, please clarify for us. However, the grand jury declining to indict is not something that in and of itself supports a claim that the forensic evidence cleared Wilson. The grand jury process is not even close to a trial in front of a fact finding jury and judge. The grand jury failed to indict because it was given only the information and evidence the prosecutor wanted to give it. Transcripts have already shown that there was prosecutorial misconduct in the instructions one of the prosecutors gave to the jurors about a Missouri statute that had decades ago been declared unconstitutional by SCOTUS.

Defending himself from assault? Really? Here's your Smoking Gun about the witness who allegedly corroborated Wilson's story.

You can always ask. You may or may not be satisfied with whether you get answers to your questions. But it never hurts to ask. I don't really have recollection of any serious confrontations by LCM or VPW wannabees. That could partially be because I didn't take them seriously. I think the key may be in the word "wannabee." Young children learn by imitating their parents, siblings and others with whom they come in contact. That's what happened a LOT with the way corpse. But it took, IMO, a special kind of arrogance and hate to instill the kind of terror in people that LCM and VPW did. But then again, it made enough of an impression on me that I let it adversely impact my family relationships. Which is what I was saying that perhaps inspired the first post on this thread.