Rocky

And we you... (I speak -- at least -- for myself). :)

From the descriptions given by OldSkool... I'd say that the association of those people with TWI defense attorneys is right on the mark. Now, I understand the term "cult experts" as used here are indicative of the poster's impressions. My hunch is that those people were human resources consultants. Clearly, TWI had much more of a legal problem with labor law compliance than what was alleged in the lawsuit by the Allens. Rather than indicative of a cult, per se, that kind of problem with managing human resources is very common in American corporate life... including in government agencies. Perhaps ESPECIALLY in government agencies. Because every organization that functions because of the labor of workers is under stress (pressure) to get as much effort/productivity out of the individual(s) for the least possible amount of wages/salary they have to pay. I worked in a large state government agency longer than anywhere else in my working career. Where most organizations rely on its workers simply not understanding (and therefore unable to assert) their rights as employees, TWI took it a step further by having the sacrifice narrative, appealing to a noble goal. Does anyone remember how that ties in to Dale Carnegie's book (How to Win Friends and Influence People)?

but don't forget that TODAY (Nov 4) is LCMs birthday... ;)

Btw, some months ago (maybe a year or so ago) JAL tried his hand at posting a blog on the WC site. The notable thing IMO to that blog is the tone he took. The majority of the members of that site were/are at least 50 years old. Yet JAL was writing (preaching/teaching) as if he was talking to new recruits or young people just setting out to find their path in life. We were all (or most?) at that place in our lives sometime... but how MANY years ago!!!??? Needless to say, since none of the people who read that blog post were newbies, there was plenty of feedback. And it wasn't all sweetness and thankfulness for JAL's kindness in sharing his wisdom with us. Many of the comments were calling him out for being so pompous. It wasn't long before Mr. Lynn just stopped responding to the "confrontation." After all, we were not being "meek" to the "truth" he was setting before us. John Lynn IS gifted. He's gifted as a performer, an entertainer. His video clip hawking the SAT prep class demonstrates that he can effectively use words and body language to communicate concepts such that the listener/audience will retain the message after the performance is finished. But just like sincerity is no guarantee for truth (after all, Wierwille convinced all of us he was sincere, didn't he?), so too is it true that being a gifted entertainer/communicator is no guarantee for truth.

I understand he HAS a job... teaching SAT prep classes. Someone had posted a sample video of it on the WC site some months ago.

The CRIME of "Threatening and Intimidating" is, in many instances a felony. Arizona Criminal Code on Threatening or Intimidating Arizona Revised Statutes cover this in Title 13 (Criminal Code), in Chapter 12 (Assault and related offenses). In other words, legally speaking, it is considered violent crime.

Isn't "having [a] fundamental Christian belief..." different from a fundamentalist approach to Christianity? As for me and my house, we will reject fundamentalism of any kind....

I'll give you a hearty AMEN to that, brother! :)

I would be surprised if ANYone here who considered themselves "followers of The Way" failed to recognize many of those things in their experience with twi.

here?

Good post, skyrider... tnks for bringing it back up here. :)

As penworks mentioned, a large part of it is a sense of belonging... For me, it is key to understanding our experience for me to keep in mind that many young adults "explore" various types of spiritual experiences. It's a very vulnerable time and TWI (by far) wasn't the only group to aim marketing efforts at that need. btw, I've written out some of my additional thoughts (elsewhere) on my experience with the WC social site... I'm going to sit on that for a bit, then decide how much I'll post here. While I have criticisms of the way that site is now being run, I'm not a victim of anything and don't want to sound like it. :)

NO... this is significantly different from what those who wanted in but weren't allowed in either experienced or didn't experience. Your "I told you so" (yes, you did communicate that) completely misses the point. But I don't care one way or the other. Of course, most of US were those inexperienced kids when we first became followers of wierwille...

Surprise? Well, that's relative. Compared to what I thought in 2007, yes. However, compared to how I saw it develop over the last six months, no. I'll expound later. :)

Dot posted on facebook that she was ok... my cousin was in Atlanta tonight and waiting for delayed flights out... she lives in the rural DC area...

btw, the persons who are allowed free reign on that site are particularly the fundamentalists, both christian fundamentist (read, extremist) AND political fundamentalists (read, extremists). And the founder of that site has essentially adopted a practice of APPEASEMENT to wierwille apologists while denying that he is one himself... at the same time as he quickly and harshly shuts down anyone who criticizes TWI... AND anyone who dares to challenge the kind of political hate speech that we've been seeing in America, and which has, indeed been expressed on that WC social site, even to the end of encouraging and/or condoning illegal and violent acts against the government of the United States.

Btw, harking back to this editorial thread on TWI, and my previous "advocacy" for the WC social website, I wanted to now tell folks here that my view of that experience has changed. The founder of that social website had quite a falling out with people on this site shortly after he started his site. While I still believe his intent was benign and noble, it is now nearly two years (and more than 1300 members) later and as things have evolved, it is clear to me that the founder of that site has gotten himself in over his head. The rules and intent stated at the start was to keep that site's forums on subjects of a general nature, applicable to the community of members therein. His stated intent was to allow members to express themselves (more or less) freely on blogs that each member could post to his/her profile page and be responsible for, and control whether or not they wanted to allow feedback (comments in response). At first, it was more freely. Now, for some it is more, and for some it is MUCH less. For example, Penworks' outstanding analysis, which Penworks posted on that site, drew some responses... actually thoughtful responses. However, the founder of that site, as soon as he caught wind of this brilliant analysis and those thoughtful responses -- SHUT IT DOWN. This he has done a couple of times to me also. If this topic is of interest, I can expand on it in it's own thread. But i think this much, since it involves a comment posted directly to this thread, which goes directly to the point of this thread, I hope I do not offend anyone by posting this here. Needless to say, I have already gotten the "spiritual cold-shoulder" from the founder of that site. Live goes on.

As valid as those reflections are, I think Penworks' analysis is the very best I've ever seen or read. The bottom line was that it was always about Wierwille's bottom line... but in terms of describing the organization and the experience for the follower, Penworks summarized, capsulized and put it in a nutshell brilliantly.

Good points...

Of course, in those other scenarios, there is a dimension of power imbalance in the relationship that makes it very clear that consent is questionable at best. I don't disagree with you on this Mark, I'd just clarify that intimate relationships/relations between a teacher/student; a boss/subordinate; and clergy/parishioner should be explicitly stated in applicable ethical codes to be improper. Further, as applicable, if anyone needs to assert or provide proof that nothing in such a relationship took place improperly, the burden of proof would need to be on the teacher/boss/clergy member... at least when it came to any court action of a civil nature (as opposed to criminal), and that statutes can be amended to place MORE of the burden on the alleged perpetrator, if not all of the burden.

Baylor University researchers found the problem to be widespread... by Jacqueline L Salmon Washington Post Staff Writer Thursday, September 10, 2009 One in every 33 women who attend worship services regularly has been the target of sexual advances by a religious leader, a survey released Wednesday says. The study, by Baylor University researchers, found that the problem is so pervasive that it almost certainly involves a wide range of denominations, religious traditions and leaders. "It certainly is prevalent, and clearly the problem is more than simply a few charismatic leaders preying on vulnerable followers," said Diana Garland, dean of Baylor's School of Social Work, who co-authored the study. It found that more than two-thirds of the offenders were married to someone else at the time of the advance. Carolyn Waterstradt, 42, a graduate student who lives in the Midwest, said she was coerced into a sexual relationship with a married minister in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America for 18 months. He had been her pastor for a decade, she said, and told her the relationship was ordained by God. (continued)

Do you know what day it is? (except for on the West Coast, then it's in an hour or two)... It's 9-9-09

Right on! (to both Lifted Up and niKa) :)

[quote name=notinKansasanymore' date='29 July 2009 - 11:15 AM' ti mestamp='1248891304' post='471939] And speaking of Cash for Clunkers (see, I told you it's impossible to derail),there is no longer a beat-up, gas-guzzling Wowmobile in the niKa driveway. There's an inexpensive, gets-great-gas-mileage, something-reliable-to-commute-to-the-new-job-mobile. And because of the stimulus plan, we can deduct the state and local sales taxes on it. Interesting week. Wooo-hooooo! Karmic, still thinking about you, Sweet Lady. WOO-HOO indeed! And Karmic, me too!

Never have bought anything from QVC or HSN/C... what a wonderful bunch of kids you have there... and the oldest must be incredibly smart, going to the University of Chicago! :)