Rocky

Fortunately for me I had some mentors at my company who helped me get past the Way model of leadership

Thankfully.

We're all survivors.

"The Bystander Effect" is not usually considered "part of denial."

https://en.wikipedia...ystander_effect

But is it still an emotional defense mechanism? I'm not suggesting you're wrong, just expanding the question.

The biggest way that my identity changed was the tendency to be arrogantly sure of my own opinion (even if "my" opinion was really a second-hand opinion gotten from someone else). When I left The Way I thought I left behind this "I know that I know that I know" crap, but it took me a while to shed that mindset. I also had absorbed some of the Way model of how to be a leader, i.e. yelling and humiliating people. As a middle manager, I was pretty ineffectual applying this method in the real world. This also took a while to change.

Indeed... and it took major emotional trauma for me to realize that crap was messed up. Trauma in the home and in the workplace.

Yeah, Victor Bernard. Yikes. This talk show on YouTube really stirred things up. Let's hope it got some viewers thinking...

I mentioned VB in a blog post recently.

http://charleneedge....flage-of-cults/

Well, it was posted in April 2014, has about 2,500 views... had only two thumbs up and two thumbs down. Now it has three thumbs up.

I realize I am probably preaching to the choir tonight. But I guess sometimes choir members are the only ones around to listen...

Penworks

Nevertheless, you didn't come off as preachy. It's a good reminder that can't hurt to review every so often. Thanks.

I was possessed with devil spirits. So yes, I would remember things.

:rolleyes:/>

I see we disagree strongly somewhere, but I do not see clearly where.

I have watched many times, ever since I was a child, followers be told to their face what is going on. Matters and accusations would come up in fellowships and then laughed off. There's that delete button in their minds where memories are just not recalled.

I do not believe there are any secrets. Just positions that get more difficult and ridiculous to defend.

It's perhaps a matter of defining what may take place between the ears of the people you observed being told things.

Something was taking place. It wasn't simply being made aware and then holding it as such. That's not how it works.

Denial is a very powerful psychological defense mechanism.

"in psychiatry, a defense mechanism in which the existence of unpleasant internal or external realities is denied and kept out of conscious awareness. By keeping the stressors out of consciousness, they are prevented from causing anxiety."

YOU may have been able to retain those items in your conscious awareness because they didn't cause you an extreme level of anxiety. Maybe?

In the words of Princess Diana: "There were three of us in this marriage."

She meant, the other woman.

I mean: the nearest MoG / wannabe.

I wasn't married - but I did get engaged. My fiance and I would discuss something and agree on it; then the twig leader above him (my own immature Corps bro) would say something else and the fiance would do that - something quite different from what we'd agreed. If I said anything ("Why did you do that thing opposite from what we'd agreed?"), I was told to defer, to be meek to my fiance. Goodness knows what a marriage would have been like.

Nuff said. I'll get angry soon... />

Sounds like cause for being thankful you didn't marry the bloke. ;)

If there were so many homos/lesbians, what had happened to CP1 (in-depth spiritual perception and awareness) that either or both of VPW/LCM had let these people get in/these devil spirits infiltrate? (And don't give me that "fog years" junk).

Really, LCM was venting his anger and frustration at the way his wife was being stolen from him by Rosie. A bit of a change, the boot on the other foot - when he had stolen so many other men's wives. A taste of his own medicine - and he felt powerless to stop it. Serves him bloody well right.

1) CP1 was complete BS.

2) I think you hit the nail squarely on the head about Loy's almost certain motivation for his homo rants. I say that piecing things together, NOT that I have been inside the creep's head.

Holy CRAP! There's some tremendous insight on this thread from yesterday and today, particularly the most recent posts by chockful, DWBH and skyrider.

I took some political science course at a college in Ohio.

The topic came up about culture.

"The Way" came up.

The instructor ended the idea of "culture", quickly, and moved on.

Wonder what he really thought.

How big was the college?

Thx for the reference d. It helps the brain to catalog. rock on.

Babylon Mystery Religion on Amazon.com

Charlene.....

Wonderful piece, as usual, from your blog.

In response to your invitation for input, I submit the following for your consideration along with that of The Greasespot community. As you, I too am interested in opinions, comments, snide remarks about what I post. Thank you all for the same.

Identity theft in terms of "how did vic affect my identity formation"? Very interesting question. It requires intense self-reflection and introspection, neither highly objective when dealing with such fundamentally crucial issues of being human. The process of identity formation is a lifelong process. It has been studied, analyzed, digitalized, and described often, by various scientific, sociologic, and psychiatric disciplines. One well-known Behavioral Psycholgist has described a lifelong process of Human Developmental Stages by identifying 8 different stages spanning a typical human lifespan of 76-80 years in the populations of "developed" nations. The critical stage we're specifically addressing here is called "Identity Formation", and the thesis identifies the typical age range or time period of this stage as taking place during the ages of 20-32.

If one looks back at the common experience many of those of us involved deeply with vic's way, it is not surprising that many of us devoted those years of critical identity formation to activities like fellowship, WOW, and most deadly, the way corpse "training". Here in the Uniied States, the average person between the ages of 20-32 is doing what? Attending and graduating from college or trade school, leaving home and striking out on their own, developing a sexual , social, and intellectual identity, experience profound relationships with males and females inside and outside the nuclear family. Decisions like career/profession, marriage or not, children or not, more education or different education or not, travel.......all those things, kind of bubble, bubble, toil and trouble around for 10-12 years and badda-bing, there we are approaching middle age before we even know it.......LOL!

Now, throw all that onto the "WOW field" or into "The Way Corps", under the totaltalitarian control of a paranoid narcissistic sociopath, serial sexual abuser and rapist, alcoholic Nazi, and ask yourself, "might that have had any influence on any of those identity formation activities and choices we made during that critical stage of human development? What was the answer? Obvious I suppose. It was for me.

That is why the process of actually disentangling oneself from a cult, (talk about quantum entanglement!), can be very difficult, because it is an identity crisis. Who am I? Why am I here? What am I "supposed" to DO? The cult and it's totalitarian leader answered every one of those questions over and over and over again for us. Vic reproduced his perverted, pathological brand of christianity in as many as he could hoodwink and manipulate it into. He was skilled at selecting the hundreds of victims of his serial rapist lifestyle. His "teachings" were all designed to reproduce the pathological Aryan behavior and thinking that governed vic and therefore governed the way. That is what governed the indoctrination and success of the "training". It is also what governed and influenced the "volunteers" and the life-choices they made during that stage of identity formation.

The developmental stage immediately prior to identity formation is Adolescence. Age ranged described as typically age 12-20. The "art" of vic's sociopathic skills, and really those of all totalist systems, is to maintain the follower in the psychoemotional stage of adolescence in order to gain complete control over the entire stage of identity formation. A kind if "forced" or "imposed" adolescence so to speak. Look at the amount of influence such totalist control can bring to bear upon a human being stuck in adolescence for 10, 20, 30, 40, or 50 years?!!

One soon discovers that one's entire identity has been formed by group think and acceptance of the perverted, pathological lifestyle of a drunken Nazi. Now THAT can be disturbing!

But, more disturbing is the difficulty many cult refugees face in summoning up the personal and/moral courage required for identity re-formation. It can be a daunting task, and many often find themselves unable to honestly deal with it. It can and often does become dysfunctional.

So, that's my input Charlene and fellow Greasespotters. Whaddya think?

My involvement with our cult began a month before I turned 20 and ended the year I graduated from college (age 31). Two years military wow, one year actual wow, one year in residence corpse. I can identify that my emotional development had been arrested and through a difficult marriage and personal study, I learned a lot of what I should probably have learned and accomplished ten years earlier. Though I survived a year in rez, I never did fully relinquish my independence. Then after a year as a wow in northern Ohio, peer pressure to conform to the whim of the minimog seemed totally unacceptable to me. Perhaps that's why when the poop paper popped, I was ready to jump ship.

I went through recognizable stages during my thirties... had a wife and a kid, then just a half time kid.

These days, I'm much more comfortable with my independence. I spend most (not all) of my time alone,reading and writing. My identity being a writer and a grandfather. No effing way I see myself becoming subject to anything like twi again.

However, interpersonal communication skills developed during that time are coming in handy in political endeavors these days. :)

So, too, I say thanks Charlene for the discussion and contributions like DWBH to provoke self-reflection and evaluation. <3 you both.

Hit singles? You mean, like that song that made it onto YouTube - The Renewed Mind is the Key - like that? /> I won't offend your ears and eyes by posting it again.

Ah! You didn't mean songs that were singles...

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

You may not have been altered much while immersed in TWI, but I know I was.

I remember sneaking off to St. Mary's library while I was working at TWI headquarters in 1986 and reading "The Mind Benders" by Jack N. Sparks. It was first published in 1977.

The book blew my mind. :-) I saw myself on some of the pages.

In Part III of the book, there's a chapter called "An Introduction to The Way, International." On page 214, there's a section called Behavior Modification. It reads in part: "Slowly the behavior of the devotee of The Way changes. He begins to act almost as he were becoming another personality. He isn't. It's just that another personality is dominating him."

Well, those of us here know who that personality was at that time: VPW himself.

If you'd like to read part of my story, here's a recent blog post.

http://charleneedge....identity-theft/

I welcome your comments about this post, either at the end of the post or here at GSC.

What do you think happened to your identity?

Cheers,

Penworks

I look back and realize that my identity really began to form in high school. The extracurricular activities I participated in (mainly drama and choir... expressive arts), and some (like athletics) I only tried to participate in, were a big part of who I would become.

One semester of college and I realized I wasn't really prepared for that experience, so I enlisted. While overseas, stuck on an island in the Atlantic, I first became involved with twi.

The military culture put limits on the development of my self, my identity and my personality. Yet, when it came time to decide whether to re-up, I knew I was too independent for that life.

Up to that point, twi wasn't a limiting factor for me. It was just good fellowship and going to a couple of ROAs... which were fun overall.

Then there was the way corpse. One year in residence, leaving during interim year, then a wow year in northern Ohio. It was only then, with an 11th corpse wow family coord, that I began to

realize how much bulls*it it was and that the organization was all about demanding obedience. Key word: began. I remained involved with twi after the wow year when I finally settled down to

get my bachelor's degree. Friends returned from that year's ROA and started talking about the poop paper. That was 1986. Continued fellowshipping with many of the same (also now former

twi people) in an independent fellowship... but it was the same format as twig. Eventually realizing that we were just doing the same thing over and over and over... for years. How freaking boring.

My degree is in accounting and during my senior year at ASU, I began to realize that accountability in twi was bass-ackward from how it was in Acts.

When I began reading books written by M Scott Peck, notably The Road Less Traveled, I was able to restart my own personal emotional development.

Accountability remains a key concept for me as I have been following and involved in politics, including three years in a journalistic organization, for the last two and a half decades.

Accountability in government and politics is a driving passion in my life. I've had some influence in some situations. I've learned that taking on the responsibilities of citizenship is both

work (in some instances, hard work) and yet, very fulfilling.

Btw, I struggled a lot with a condescending attitude for years, partly because I grew up with relatives telling me I was bright, partly because the culture in twi was that we were always right.

Truly, people you'd like to be friends with often can't stand it when you're being condescending. I try to be humble these days... don't always succeed.

Does that answer the question?

Are we sure it's just incidental? I would imagine as his power and desire for more grew, taking lives would be part of a "logical" progression. Money, adulation and women would not be enough. His followers we know fed on fear, a "good" twig fellowship made your skin tingle, full of talk about anger and violence. The Man himself I would think laid the "blueprints" for that. Indiscriminate use of abortion, driving suicide, talk of disposing of children, talk of war, as examples. The stereotypical cult involves death. Lots of death. The Thief commeth not but for to steal kill and destroy. That leads me to think it's more than incidental.

Conceptually, from vpee's observed behavior, the more blatant and obvious intentions were money, adulation and sex.

I don't know that we've had people discuss any open or public statements that he may have made suggesting otherwise.

"That leads me to think it's more than incidental..." is a statement based on your inference. I'm not suggesting you are either right or wrong. Just pointing out that it's an inference.

Given that he was still "in charge" at the time of the Jonestown mass suicide, I suspect he would have been careful not to put himself in the same box of public

perception as Jim Jones.

As a psychopath, vpw wanted total control over people.

The ability to choose to end lives was sort-of incidental compared to what

he really wanted- money, adulation, and women.

Nailed it.

Excellent point!

This same scripture could be used in a pfal thread,

any "law of believing" thread, or those where corps

leaders were trying to entrap with guilt and fear.

Thanks.

And then there's the passage in John 16:33 where Jesus tells his disciples that regardless of anything else, s*it happens.

“I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.” NIV

And wasn't there a retemory verse from Isa 26:3

"You will keep in perfect peace those whose minds are steadfast, because they trust in you."

Did Loy really trust God? My hunch is that this verse in Isaiah wasn't there for condemnation but perhaps as encouragement.

Almost thou persuadeth me... er, well really I should say that pretty much, thou hast persuaded me that the Bible is just one big story that provides (probably) billions of people with something around which to provide meaning to their lives and provide meaning to this life.

When I was 20, there were people, my elders (not in my church or cult) just people who had lived a couple of decades longer than I had at that time. These folks suggested to me that truth was relative and that there are many ways to "find God." Of course, VPee addresses that issue head on in the FLAP class. Over the course of the last 40 years, so much more of life, and discussions like we see on this thread, have convinced me that there probably ARE many ways to get to heaven, if there is or will be such a thing (or place).

Seriously, it has become so obvious that johniam is either a tremendous poser (pretending to be such a twi dogmatist) or is a complete loon. I say that with respect. There's no indication I see in your writing here, john, that your life is out of control in any way. It's just that your writing shows a worldview that I find so completely bizarre.

OTOH, Steve L makes a solid argument with most everything I've seen him post (especially on this thread). But I can't help but wonder/realize that, in the context of myths (many myths are true, but as I understand it now, they all are stories that help people understand social and psychological aspects of life). I wonder how genuinely it really matters who is right?

Granted, I accept that the common understanding at gsc about our common experience with twi is that twi was not a genuine heavenly utopia, rather a subculture built on a charismatic, narcissistic and perhaps psychopathic character's storytelling. But other than that, what does it really matter which meaning a given greek word is correct?

So - Johniam - what "faith" was VPW demonstrating by his works upon young women? And upon the young women's husbands, if they had a husband?

or more familiarly:

If one can tell what is going on in a child's head and heart by the child's actions, by the outward demonstration of what the child believes, how much more for an adult? Remember, we're not looking in the short term of a quick and convenient lie about something that VPW did or didn't do - anyone can lie and dissemble for a short period. On the contrary, we're considering the pattern of behavior over a period of years. Over some decades, what does that man's actions betray about his heart? His thoughts? His faith?

And that's what gives the right, or insight, to know what's in someone else's heart. The long-term actions, or works, of that someone. Whether that someone be VPW, Johniam, Rocky, the Pope, the President, the Queen ...

Here's another... Proverbs 23:7. thanks for those verses, Twinky.

quote: Again, what gives you the right, or even just the "insight" to know what's in someone else's heart?

Excuse me, but there are many here who seem to know exactly what was in VPs heart.

Well, that's not at all related to the question. However, vpee was the one in the spotlight pretty much all of the time and put himself out there as the "MOG."

There's LOTS of reflection in the GSC forums on his actions.

I'd say to you, "nice deflection," because that's what your response is. But it's not nice. Instead, it constitutes an invalid argument and apparent lack of understanding of

emotional and social intelligence.

This is not painful for me. You probably think my conscience has been seared with a hot iron. Whatever. Just a few questions. You say that, well...

quote:

We got upset when Wierwille was criticized because Wierille taught us to identify with HIM... Wierwille never taught us that our primary allegiance should be to Jesus Christ, and HE is the one we should identify with. Wierwille stole the thankfulness, the honor and the glory that we should have rightly been giving to Jesus Christ and took it for himself. Wierwille was not Christian. He substituted himself for Christ in our estimation. He was an enemy of Christ.

I never thought VP was Jesus. OK, specifically what did you do to make Christ the object of your allegiance. Specifically, what PEOPLE are involved. Sounds to me like you scrapped VP and now have the same "allegiance" to other people. God called us to a body and Christ is nobody's twig leader; He's seated at the right hand of God. SOMEBODY has to be your twig leader or where you get your information from. VP was always saying "I didn't die for you". He said he represented Christ but so does every Christian minister.

You and others must also believe that multiple centers of learning causes confusion. You and others here seem to believe that any professional person, Christian or not, who says anything about cults is speaking the gospel. So, when people like me show up with a different center of reference, this is a problem. I read that attached article Penworks posted. Sounds like same old same old. That was NOT the twi I was in. Looking at everybody in any group like they're cult robots until proven innocent is, at best, thinking evil, and at worst, bigotry.

Back to that multiple centers of reference thing. There doesn't have to be a scripture for it. God gave everyone free will. We consider multiple points of view because we CAN! If you're in a football game, huddled up, and the play is given (offense OR defense), that is NOT the time to consider other points of view. But there's plenty of time after the game, or between plays to analyze and comment, not just in football. Overall, the AOS confused people, but there were some points of similarity.

Just because VP helped himself to things he shouldn't have doesn't define twi 100%.

Why would you even care what anyone thinks of you?

Sounds to me like you scrapped VP and now have the same "allegiance" to other people.

Again, what gives you the right, or even just the "insight" to know what's in someone else's heart?

quote:

No matter what "evidence" you could cite, the conclusion that twi was and is a "cult" is a subjective feeling. My inclination that twi was valuable is also a subjective feeling. There are some things that only God can totally sort out.

John, there's plenty of subjectivity when you're unfamiliar with how objective criteria on cults squarely marks this subculture for what it really is.

In addition to all the other points made about the twi "rationale" for abortion, it all goes back to the underlying concept for ALL of wierwille's private interpretation of scripture: self-justifying rationalization.

I don't believe that contradicts any of the things mentioned by others in response to MRAP's question.

Tying it back to the main thread topic/title, compared to wierwille's lusts -- money, sex and power -- ALL of it trivialized EVERYone except him. That's how I see it, anyway.

How about the fact that this "cornfield cult" you keep denigrating had over 100,000 people take pfal foundational, and got to be in the top 5 most dangerous religious cults. Satan was very concerned about us. We even got Bob Dole talking about us. AND!!!!! We had people from all over the world coming to the ROA. How's come we even got THAT far if God wasn't involved. You speak with forked tongue. AND!!!! People actually got delivered from many things. TWI would have fizzled out before the end of the 60s if God was not healing and blessing people big time. No genocide here, let's deal with reality!

Some big, fat claims in that brief paragraph. And not one of those claims has any factual basis.

Okay, we all might reasonably accept that more than 100k souls took the PLAF class. But "top 5 most dangerous religious cults?" Perhaps that was just snark. But in the context you set forth, I don't know how your "Satan was very concerned about us" is snarky.

"People actually got delivered from many things." Vague, subjective and without any reference point that can reasonably be taken seriously. There's more... but why bother. "let's deal with reality!?" Do you mean some obnoxiously unscripted television show? Because you didn't present any other kind of reality.