Rocky

One of my favorite quotes ever (and I can't find the person who said it, but I believe it was John Fugelsang)...

"I've been to hell. It's called the comments section."

I've stopped reading them. They make me mad. And I truly believe that the people there represent a minority of all humanity. They are just people who want attention. The same people who were bullies in school and still need the attention now as adults. I just don't pay any attention to them. That would be giving them what they want anyway.

Well... either that or they are people who just have a lot to say. Sometimes it makes sense, often it doesn't. :)

Two things:

1) if you hate the internet, why are you on it?

2) the medium is inherently limited. It doesn't facilitate discussion, partly because it doesn't permit anyone to read non-verbal communication of the other parties to what otherwise could be a productive discussion.

It's not about people being fundamentally bad. It's the limitations of the medium for communication.

As many of you regular GS-posters know, this topic of "good-hearted, quality corps grads

exiting twi since 1978" has been a staple of my postings. For years, it was a few dozen

couples here, a few dozen couples there......and who really noticed when the throngs of

thousands convened at the rock of ages?

Yet, for some of us who worked alongside many of these wholesome corps grads, I found them

to be the salt of the earth....brothers and sisters in Christ. My wife and I have many

fond memories of these fun, energetic, spontaneity, committed-to-the-Lord individuals.

But.....little by little, dribble by dribble, they were putting more distance between

corporate-twi and their lives, families, education, careers, etc. Why? Obviously, they

too were seeing red flags and/or saw the need that to best serve God one needed to have

a solid, family/finances/future for a foundation.

Who stayed in twi? Who stayed to rise to the region levels? The yes-men. The ego-driven.

The Pharisees. The bullies. Yes, those who were made in the image of wierwille.

This background of information validates how twi became a paradox of principles under one roof.

The Pharisee crowd were pulling levers and pushing buttons to manipulate.....and God-inspired

disciples were out ministering to the people, endeavoring to walk by the spirit. Corporate twi

became vexed in its echo chamber of elitism. Plenty of good advanced class grads and corps

weren't spending any time in this echo chamber.

But hey......the days are long past finding out this information. Even here at GreaseSpot,

nearly all of the corps grads and hq staffers have moved on that used to visit this place.

Perhaps, I should move on, too.

Some who came to twi after 1985 might never have known how amazing some of these people were

who passed thru twi's doors.....

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentence. [Rom. 11:29]

I continue to appreciate your insight on the inner workings of twi. As they say... spot on. In every instance.

Really ? I tried the link thing earlier, that's why there's a 'blank' post below it. Seriously, you prefer a link or source for EVERYTHING ?! Why not just enjoy an article for it's little bit of wisdom or humour that it may bring ?! The title ( ironically enough is PERFECTIONISM ) and it is from an article in the New Zealand ( yes, it's a country, not an obscure U.S. state )Herald, by a columnist. I can get back to you with her name, however I seem to recall she is of Asian ethnicity, around 5' 3, quite pretty !!

Because there's so many intentionally misleading websites that claim to be satire. No other way to put any article in proper perspective and context.

Having grown up on a farm, and near a small town....my life was filled with sports, hunting, fishing,

motorcycles, water skiing, county fairs, 4-H competition, tractors, and wheat harvest.

During my sophomore year in high school, missionaries moved into the area and were active

in Central American outreach. It was at this point that I was introduced to Romans 10:9,10

and confessing/believing that Jesus was savior, mediator, and lord. Born again.

At college a few years later, WOW Ambassadors were excited about this class. I took it....

and so began my journey into the twi/vpw indoctrination. At times, my mind registered warning signs

of this "detour".....but the allure of youthfulness, zealousness and passion was too tempting. So,

class after class......and into the corps I went.

If I were to write a book, I'd say that this "twi experience" would consummate chapters 8-15

of my 30-chapter book. You see....twi was a significant portion of my life, and this experience

altered my life, but it doesn't define me. My bedrock core comes from my family, my faith, and

my upbringing.

Did I learn "commitment" from twi? No.

Did I learn "faith" from twi? No.

Did I learn "the Word" from twi? No.

In contemplating this twi-experience, I now see why I was perplexed when I read How to Enjoy the Bible

by Bullinger during my WOW year. In crediting Bullinger's work, I held deep suspicions that wierwille

had plagiarized the work. Time and time again, I asked myself why was all this adulation of wierwille

being splashed on The Way magazine if we're to give glory to God, not man?

Guess I was the "doubting Thomas" in the midst......because I smelled the manipulation and deception

early on. The reason that I didn't bolt was because there were so many genuine, good-hearted people

that I sincerely thought that we could right the ship. Alas, it didn't happen.

Did twi change me, good or bad? To me.....that's such a moot point. My journey in life, I believe,

is so much bigger than that twi-exposure. Even while "in"....life was happening all around me.

Marriage, children, school events, awards, competition, ball games,births and deaths, joys and sorrows

.....yeah, life.

The biggest take-aways from twi, for me......was the insidious deception and intent. The wolf

was in sheep's clothing and hailed as "the man of God." Now, I see why the Scriptures give us

a healthy dose of WARNINGS: deceivers, seducers, lords over God's heritage, ye hypocrites

[Matt. 15], leaven of the Pharisees, be doers of the Word and not hearers only, etc.

With twi in the distant rear-view mirror, I would say that the last 15 years have been quite good.

Thank God we exited twi before our boys were exposed to the gauntlet of classes and indoctrination.

Fast forward, and our oldest son graduated #1 in his medical school class and has received several

other honors since. Second son's business has been growing in leaps and bounds. Life, in full

measure, has been restored. God is good always.

I shudder to think what life would be like if I were still slogging along in cornfield heaven.

Chapters 21-30 of "my book" put a spring in my step to see what God has in store.

The last 5 chapters, since exiting twi in 1998, have been quite remarkable.

.

I love your narrative. Indeed, so much more for me since leaving. In significant ways, for me, twi represented a period of stunted emotional, social and intellectual growth.

I look back and think about the roads not taken. If I had the energy now that I had 40 years ago, I'd be in (or already through) law school and would be making even more positive impact on my community.

Instead, I'm thankful for my journey and that I've made it this far. I love me life at this stage. But I certainly do not give twi credit for it, though the rocky road that was twi for me did, of course, provide experience upon which I've been able to develop at least a little bit of wisdom. And like skyrider, I'm thankful for how successful my children (daughter and stepson) are today... and neither have had to go through twi to get there. :)

I consciously rejected a career path beyond one enlistment term in the Air Force because I couldn't see myself subservient to commanders for so long. When the light came on for me, in 1986, I knew I had had enough of twi and don't regret even one iota the decision to leave.

Fundamentalism S U C K S!

When I was in The Way, it was considered a sign of spiritual weakness to lack the ability to "believe" for whatever you might need, including healing. No one wanted to wear the badge of spiritual weakling. There was a great deal of pressure to resolve any problems you might have by using the law of believing. In the training programs, that pressure was ramped-up considerably.

The law of believing is not really a law. In fact, it's not even Biblical. Sure, you can cherry pick a few verses here and there to make it appear to have scriptural basis but, in reality, it does not. In the 1950's and 1960's there was a movement we now refer to as New Age Thinking. It relies heavily on the works of people like Norman Vincent Peale (The Power of Positive Thinking), Robert Schuller (Hour of Power), Oral Roberts (Expect a Miracle) and many, many others. In the least common denominator, it simply promotes the idea that you control what happens to you, both good and bad, by the thoughts you entertain. That's covered in the PFAL class session that deals with the fire engine red curtains (positive believing) and the story of the little boy who died tragically, after being run over by a car (negative believing), because his mother harbored fear for his safety. There is even a contemporary version of it called The Secret (Rhonda Byrne).

Here's a snippet from page 44 of PFAL (orange book):

"What one fears will surely come to pass. It is a law."

Nope, sorry, it's not a law. In addition, people fear all sorts of things that never come to pass. It's nonsense, plain and simple. And, it generates a lot of grief and guilt for those who are unable to make positive believing work for them.

Originally, there were no bound books to accompany the PFAL class. Instead, there were little booklets with individual title subjects. They were later amassed into book form. One of the booklets dealt with what we now call the law of believing. In the booklet, it wasn't called the law of believing, it was called magic thinking or something along those lines. (Someone please correct me on the exact title).

People literally died trying to make this stuff work. It's not a laughing matter nor should its ramifications be taken lightly..

Indeed, does shiftthis even have a clue as to why, at the various ROA festivals in August, the medical help tent was called THIRD aid, rather than first aid?

i have never talked to anyone in the way about what i posted about people turning away from Paul. I got what i posted from the Bible. the only thing i ever talked to anyone about was LCM and the 2 women he was banging...

no , i'm not an innie.

Only two?

What makes you think you're the only one who has said or even thought any of that?

The same thing? There were allegations of sexual impropriety (okay, rape) against Paul? Gosh, I didn't know that!

Yes, can see why "most of the believers" would leave his ministry, and turn against him. They were wise ... if that were the case.

An important reflection, Twinky.

I suspect that current twi "innies" use the irrational rationale as explained by shiftthis because it's been offered as an

effective shiny object to distract followers away from having to assess wierwille's depravity.

Was it all bogus? Wierwille's presentation was very deceptive.

Indeed, Wierwille was not physically attractive... but, seduction is not limited to sex.

In fact, if the seduction techniques used in twi had been of the kind to reach into the soul of a person and touch that soul with a word or an action that demonstrated a kindness to the person that was meaningful, THAT is seduction. Seduction without ulterior motives.

I suspect that kind of seduction took place from time to time in twi, AND elsewhere, and provided a kind of deliverance to plenty of people.

If twi could have understood that, and effectively communicated it, we might not be sitting here writing posts on GSC right now.

Alas, because the organization was corrupt at its core, because the heart of its founder appeared not to know that truth, twi couldn't make it the foundation of its growth strategy.

Anyway, just a little bit of my stream of consciousness for the moment. Thanks for indulging me.

Btw, a couple of TED talks opened my eyes to the notion that seduction is not always or only about sex.

What do they call it now?

MDTC (Money Down The Crapper)

How nice, that's what I call it too. ;)

It's NOT lame to help other people. You don't know what simply being kind to someone in a soup kitchen might mean to them.

Be prepared, yourself, to work alongside other Christians. You might just shock yourself with what you learn from them. Indeed, you might find yourself being "brought to the Word." The real Word. The Living Word.

Incredibly poignant words. Thanks, Twinky, for writing them.

My 2 cents. I was overseas (USAF) on an island where the primary military mission was logistical for supporting European US military operations, at the time of the Israeli airlift. My involvement was nothing out of my ordinary job as a telecom systems tech.

Looking back, for me, on wierwille wanting a military-like organization was solely and exclusively about the fact that he wanted adulation and obedience. Nothing more, nothing less. All WC "training" was about obedience, not about spiritual growth. Ooops, excuse me, "spiritual growth" was the label they put on obedience training.

In the 1990s, well after leaving twi, I learned about servant-leadership and learning organizations. Twi was about neither of those things.

WordWolf, I did really just want to let it slide but I can't, please, don't use the Bataan Death March in a comparison to anything. Met some of the survivors back in the mid-1980's; since then, I have never correlated that event to anything that was considered arduous. I know you meant no disrespect but only state this openly so others do not use that event in a correlation in the future. Hopefully you will not think I am just trying to be politically correct (Lord knows that I am far from that) nor am I trying to push a pro-military vet agenda, it's just very painfull to those few survivors that exist today but mostly, their families.

I had never heard the term Bataan Death March. So, I looked it up.

That abomination sparked memory for me of a freshman class in Humanities I took in 1972, where we discussed "man's inhumanity to man."

This may be the first time I've agreed with MRAP (on anything he may have written at gsc), but yeah, it seems that invoking the BDM in relation to reading an offensive website could serve to trivialize that particular horrific historic event.

That's why the most successful program, IMHO, for twi was the WOW program.

Take some young people with drive. Tell them to go somewhere and do something,

and provide neither support nor oversight nor transportation there.

and wait for them to succeed.

(Think about it-other than class materials, the WOWs were COMPLETELY on their own.)

There was also zero screening before the zero oversight, so the kids could discover,

on the field, that one of the people in their group was predatory or mentally ill

and a danger to himself or them. And if there was a problem on the field, the

WOW was put on a Greyhound Bus and sent home and forgotten about.

(We've had stories about how someone traumatized or injured was just put on a bus,

then turned up home WEEKS LATER, or how someone wandered off the bus and later was

discovered before they were killed or otherwise harmed further.)

Amazingly, many of us (including me) bought into some kind of mind control in order to fall for that scheme.

Makes me think about another cult like group that promised 70 virgins for something or other.

That they still refer to him as "Dr." is rather telling, in and of itself.

Isn't the "original" vpw's grandson involved with the outfit in Mississippi?

And, see.....

THAT's why the posters at greasespot are here to tell the other side of the story, the seduction.

I, too, was doing more before going thru the corps indoctrination and selling "the enhanced conformity." But in reality, the twigs (as rallied around the wierwille factor).....were slowly conforming to legalized consumption. The corps program sped up the process.

The question is NOT "why do I keep capitalizing the corps?"

The question IS....."why do I keep calling him DR. Wierwille?"

Corps = corpse.

Wierwille = corpse.

I do not own an iphone yet the voices continue.

Not surprising. :)

Well how's this for irony, Tom: I have attended a mainstream church since 2001. I have never become a member for the same reasons you state, although I've never told anyone exactly why. For the first 5 years, the trinity was never mentioned. Then we left the denomination and the new denomination is REALLY trinitarian. Since I had been a Jesus is functionally god person for a number of years, the trinity didn't bother me that much - anymore. Now I'm struggling with believing any of it. However, since I'm a huge volunteer and we are well known even in our large congregation, here I am going almost every week.

What happened is that I no longer care about doctrine. That started in 2002. I became very aware of how doctrine was basically a matter of opinion and very divisive when it comes to relationships. Since for me church is about relationships, I just don't let doctrine be a dealbreaker for me. I don't need to discuss it. I don't need to be in agreement to have a relationship.

I found it to be very liberating. Not. to. care.

That's really what churches are about, for most people anyway, IMO.

In the mid-1990s, I attended a community church for a couple of years. It was okay. They did believe in the trinity but I ignored that aspect.

Eventually, I came to realize I didn't really need their fellowship either. Oh, we ALL need some kind of fellowship. A sense of belonging, with people who have a common purpose.

I found it elsewhere. And then I realized moral people exist outside of churches and Christianity.

And I agree wholeheartedly with Tzaia. It's tremendously liberating to just not care what others think about religious issues.

When Perry and other Republicans tried bringing up the 'cult' issue when Mitt was running for Prez in order to damage his Presidential run, ... and failed _miserably_. Love _that one! ...

Ahhhh. Okay. I see. :)

I'm glad you posted that link, Rocky. I didn't really understand what it was so I spend much of yesterday afternoon checking it out. It looks pretty nasty to me!

I thought doc vic was "good" at twisting Scripture, but that group could have taught him a lesson or two!

Indeed. I think FRC may be based out of Colorado Springs. When I flew into that city (cheap airfare) to spend a week in Denver (July 2014), I was astounded at the pervasiveness of two things in that city.

1) Military installations (including the Air Force Academy) and 2) Dominionist and other self-described Religious Right churches/organizations.It's so thick there that the county refused to license any cannabis dispensaries.

"(Perry is trying it on Romney right now)..." and we all saw how successful that was --- NOT!

Huh?

The molestation is a big deal, no question. A far bigger issue, though, is how a concerted effort was carried out for 10 years to sweep it under the rug. Even the state police were involved. The TV series is a high revenue producing franchise. In addition, the Duggars represent a fundamentalist organization (Family Research Council) that preaches the values of honesty, purity and chastity. Not only is a loss of revenue at stake, hypocrisy looms ominously over their heads. Now, it seems that the police report has been uncharacteristically destroyed. Fortunately for us, nothing ever really disappears from the internet.

HERE is the police report, all 33 pages of it.

edit: I chose this particular source because it ironically represents a part of our society (LGBT) that Family Research Center rails against.

FRC is a Dominionist organization (as well as being fundamentalist).

I would hate to think of how much grief I would get if my teenage misadventures came to light.

How many adult males are 'pure' of the sin of fondling a female not their wife? I am not pure of that sin. Let alone back when I was a kid.

Did you participate in sexual activity with people more than a year or so younger than you?

If not, then it's not the same thing as in this situation with a highly public family.

Additionally, I don't think bickering over the semantics regarding the relative evil of molesting vs intercourse is really relevant to the discussion... unless the intercourse resulted in pregnancy. Otherwise, it's still sexual activity most likely in violation of state laws, depending on which state they are or were living in.

This might only be sorta kinda on topic.