Rocky

oh i ate cheerios on the morning of my first communion

-

thanks rocky i mean it

unpleasant doesn't describe what he wrote back -- he was mean and meaner lol -- he was a total DIIICK

i thought he would understand the love i had for him and knowing how veepster operated, i thought he could turn it all around

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha h aha ha ha ha

love,e

f 'em all

I knew you meant it. And I meant it too... except that I was most definitely using a euphemism when I said "unpleasant." I had (and have) no doubt that he was exceedingly mean and nasty.

Clearly, Martindale didn't have the presence of mind -- unlike King David when Nathan confronted him -- to recognize the graceful guidance that you had offered him. We live and learn. And thankfully, we're still alive and kicking. :)

i loved craig

when the vp died, i wrote to him and said now is your chance to do it right and not follow in his path of sexual deviance blah blah blah

craig worte me back the most horrible letter i can't tell you. i wish i had not left all my corps files behind in my previous life. not that it would change anything really

but i was sadly disappointed

Good for you for writing the letter to him despite him not having his ears and eyes open to what you had, maybe right from the heart of God for him.

A lot of things that happened exposed how unprepared Loy was to lead anyone in the ways of the Lord. I suspect your letter was among them.

Instead, he was marking his territory, spraying his urine indescriminately, figuratively speaking, in hopes of establishing himself as THE alpha male... known in that organization as the MOGFOT.

It's unfortunate that you were rewarded with unpleasant feedback.

Roasting rosie, donna and mis-directors......

In my youth, I took your classes and signed up for some programs......BUT that does not mean

that *my life is YOURS TO TAKE* by any stretch of your deceiving agendas. You say you stand

for biblical truth......and yet, scripture explicitly states that INDIVIDUALLY, each person

is accountable for his or her life before God.

If one is to follow your collective agenda of groupthink, then wouldn't it stand to reason that

you COLLECTIVELY are laden with the sins of wierwille and his ilk? Twi cannot cherry-pick the

'whole of goodness' and dismiss the 'trainwreck of destruction' to objective thought.

Twi has NEVER addressed the real reasons for the 1987 exodus and 2000 mini-exodus.

Poignant, but not necessarily humorous.

Perhaps you need another slice of baloney in your shoes... ;)

I just wanted to say hello to Rosalie and congratulate her on her ascension to the top of The Way International hierarchy. Well done. As any good president knows, you would not be where you are today if not for the shoulders of the giants on which you stand, so let's give a hand to all those giants, shall we?

Craig Martindale! John Lynn! Chris Geer! Vince Finnegan! Mike Tracy! Walter Cummins! Johnny Townsend! Earl Burton! Ralph Dubofsky! Let's give them all a BIG hand!

Tough room.

Mike Tracy? He was in the 7th WC. You must be thinking of someone else.

At this point, I don't know if I really want to go thru the painstaking task of resurfacing all these details.

Honestly, it's quite embarrassing to admit that I got ensnared in twi's cult and how it altered my life.

Besides.....by the grace of God and a truckload of perseverance, I came out on the other side intact

with a special wife and family.

But if I did write it, should I include......??

1) My 'Ten Days of Deprogramming' experience

2) Escaping from the halfway house and phoned twi & flown back to hq

3) Recovering at Don and Wanda's and documenting the experience

4) Meeting with VPW for 3 days on his motorcoach to write "By The Way" articles

5) Wierwille's prophesy that my parents would disown me (which did not happen)

6) Finishing my research paper ahead of others despite all this

7) Later..at our wedding, lcm-performed the ceremony, howard-walked my bride down aisle, and rosie-bridesmaid

8) Etc. etc......

For years, I've kept a very low profile.......but with all that I've shared, twi obviously knows who I am.

There's more, too..........but will leave that for later.

.

Write about ALL of those things. When you get it to what looks like a reasonable stopping place, you then look back and decide what goes in the final manuscript.

How ghastly AWFUL... I am SOOO glad I got out when I did. It was so much easier to build a life at age 31 than later. Of course, I've changed careers a couple of times since, but...

anyway, Sky... I hope you write that book.

I believe the point of the anniversary is not the founding of the organization, but VP's claim that God spoke to him audibly in Oct 1942, then proved it by a blizzard in Payne, OH. As you recall, VP liked to embellish (that is, lie) to inflate his self-importance, as most cult leaders do (Joe Smith claimed two gods appeared to him and later gave him golden plates in Egyptian, which sounds even more exciting than snow). "God" told VP that He would teach VP the Word as it had not been known since the first century, which would make VP God's 14th apostle, the man of God for our day and time.

VP added more excitement to this story over time in order to make it sound more supernatural. An early telling of the story in The Way's 25th Anniversary Souvenir booklet left out the snow and did not say that God spoke audibly. Five years later VP spun a bigger yarn (and got more people to believe it) by adding the audibility and snow. TWI, and the world, was supposed to revolve around vpw.

VPW snowed people with another snow story a few years later, claiming that a blizzard forced him tio stay in Tulsa in 1951 until he received holy spirit. Weather records from both Tulsa and Ohio prove that both stories were lies.

I bet he even convinced himself they were true, however. Isn't that what narcissists do?

apparently he is up for parole this month sometime (October 2012)

What exactly does "up for parole" mean? Is he scheduled for release or for a hearing before the parole board for them to consider whether they should release him?

Indeed, TWI became, in practice, what Wierwille demonstrated in practice. There was a time or two when his wrath was directed at me. SOOO many years ago. Thankfully, many years ago.

And......why is there a corps-only website for EX-corps members?

They want to REMEMBER some cherry-picked things, yet have distanced themselves from the organization altogether......huh?

Are they still doing that ning site?

Btw, back in 1986, one of the first things I figured out was how twi had accountability bass-ackward. In Acts and in Paul's epistles, accountability of the ministers to those they SERVED (not lorded over) is paramount. Yet, twi had us going in reverse on that concept.

Walking back thru a bit of history, one can pinpoint certain 'forks in the road' when TWI leadership could have admitted their shortcomings and errors in twi doctrine......AND pivoted toward the truth. Yet, sadly and deceptively......they obfuscated such responsibility before the Lord and covered their deeds in darkness.

snip

...all of this presupposes that wierwille's ministry had ANYTHING OF VALUE that could have been salvaged.

Never forget what Yogi Berra said: "When you come to a fork in the road, take it."

Bottom line, as I see it, is the same as your bottom line on this. It all presupposes...

Frankly, however, I disagree on whether Wierwille led by example.

TWI became what he lived as that example, a corrupt ministry that used people for personal gain and sexual gratification.

I'd say my biggest AMEN to what LindaZ wrote.

But, of course, Chockfull and Skyrider also had tremendous insight.

To Skyrider and the thread he linked to, on Wierwille's rants, I'd say WOW.

By the way, Skyrider -- dude, WRITE your book. You really have something that needs to be

told.

Of course, I would say AMEN to what everyone else posted in their comments too.

i would like to see that penworks, i think.....

--

now, how can i explain this?

people who think their little local wayfer twig is AOK they don't deal with HQ

i feel the same way about the way as i do the catholic church

if the head of it is corrupt, why

oh never mind right now

I don't go to any church any more. No bible study. In the mid-1990s, I attended a community church for a couple of years.

Don't feel a need to be involved in any of it any more.

I don't knock people who do attend... I guess each has to work out their own salvation, or something like that.

But when, because of current affairs (news reporting) or talking to people in the course of my life, I hear or read or

think about things people believe, many times the Catholic Church stuff seems pretty weird. Of course, so does

a lot of other things people do because of religion.

Rocky.....one of the things about "processing and reprocessing" our twi experiences is to note that TWI was a moving target.

Depending on which twi period(s) one experienced, the processing takes its accounting:

1) In 1972, twi was small, insignificant, commune-ish, summer camps, miniscule corps program, meals in brc basement, vpw-charisma, love-bombing, etc.

2) By 1982, twi was expanding rapidly, music groups everywhere, five corps campuses, planes, motorcoaches, large WOW group, WOW-vet program, college outreach...

3) By 1992, twi was rebuilding after 'fog years,' some-80% walked away, geer/lynn/other splinters, new classes, consolidating branches, purges, legalism....

4) By 2002, twi was adjusting to martindale's ouster, rosie's micromanagement, script-reading on sundays, erasing lcm's classes, more turmoil and unrest....

5) By 2012, twi is.......uh, unclothed to public view, pathetic in its numbers, skewing its importance, and comical in its boastings of wierwille lore.

Yes, many experienced an overlapping of trends, policies, new leadership, growing legalism, etc. Some never went corps or staff.....and THEREFORE, have a whole different set of field perspectives and shuffling of local leadership. Some remain entrenched in the wierwille mystique of mogdom and refuse to consider any objective processing despite the overwhelming evidence of vpw's plagairism, predation and pontification.

Some really would rather live in a dilution past where they romanticize their 'significance in twi's spiritual subculture'.....period.

The open forum here at GS is a goldmine for those who really want to weigh its value. Unequivocally, these open discussions lay bare that wierwille's twi was structured, promoted, and proliferated under the guise of deception and denial.

Yep. No argument from me on any of that.

quote:

And your comment, "Any church does this."

Does any church have security patrol 24/7, bodyguards, trained dogs and corps bless patrol during summer camp training?

Sure, every 'church' has a person who crawls under the mainstage prior to their event searching for bombs!

sure, every main pastor speaks suspiciously of FBI agents on their grounds.....like wierwille did at roa.

Twi's ISOLATION......especially corps/staff/hq projected an affront to the 'outside world.'

Other than SIT, churches DO the 5 basics. As for the security measures, I bet that crystal cathedral of Robert Schuller's has security. TWI had enemies. That's why you have security. I never felt isolated in twi; just ostracized from the extremists who targeted us and whoever they got to. I said recently in another thread that you don't need to have that many people in your group to feel appreciated. As long as I felt appreciated, I did not feel isolated. Yeah, I'll bet those FBI agents felt REALLY isolated. Stuck spying on a bunch of Christians. Tough work.

Perhaps you meant to say, "I ASSUME" that Robert Schuller's Chrystal Cathedral has security.

But I would ask whether you exercised any level of diligence to verify whether or to what extent your assumption had any validity.

You could always call them and ask.

Chrystal Cathedral

The indoctrination and subversion in twi would not be possible without ISOLATION.

When I was first introduced to twi in the 70's......twig fellowships were three times a week. Under the guise of "undershepherding" John (the guy who witnessed to me) would call me everyday to 'see how I was doing.' Later, I learned that this was a twi-policy to help boost pfal class rosters and recruitment.

And, in pfal......wierwille challenged the students to put away all their reading material for the next three months and delve into his class material and books. Did wierwille exhort me to go to my heavenly Father in daily prayer? Nope. Did wierwille encourage me to take daily steps to ensure that Jesus was mediator and lord of my life. Nope.

Every class was simply a steppingstone for ANOTHER class......and into the belly of the 'whale.'

Class after class ----> and then, go WOW. Get away from your friends. Leave your home town.

Was this wierwille's way of stealthily introducing MORE isolation?

What constitutes isolation?

1) Separation from family, friends, education, career path, social network

2) Separation from other sources to dissolve critical thinking

3) Programs, like WOW and Way Corps, that insulate from all outside influence

4) Corps/Staff -- all news was filtered thru twi's filters of spirituality

5) Major Events in twi scheduled over Thanksgiving and Easter weekends

6) All holidays were tweaked by twi to errode family connections & memories

7) An Us-versus-Them mindset was foundational in many twi teachings

8) Buzz words like "earthly family" were deliberate and biting

9) Twi's use of "true household" was a counterfeit replacement

10) Relationships are built over time......and twi derailed family, spouse, child bonds

Isolation is a powerful weapon. Strategically and stealthily, twi intervened in one's youthful relationships and expanding parameters. At those critical junctures in life's development, twi's isolation was very disruptive and derailed the lives of thousands. Far more than lending a helping hand, recruiting was their objective.

The corps indoctrination was, often, from dawn to dusk......to nightowl.

Not only were we structured into a work/study program throughout the day......but 'household responsibilities' each month. Whether that was dishroom detail, dining room setup, classroom setup, campfire and outdoor setup, ushering duties, etc......there was very little time to process anything. The indoctrination was complete. The ISOLATION OF ONE-SIDED INDOCTRINATION was inescapable. There were times when many fell asleep during teachings, or mealtime......or simply collapsed into their bed at night.

IMO....twi's micromanagement escalated even further in the 1990's. As hard as that might be to imagine, yes it happened. Detailed schedules were to be filled out. See, no isolation of personal privacy. Twi WANTED in. They wanted to search out any suspicion of debt, doubt, homosexuality, unproductiveness, dissent, etc. Either you fill out those schedules.....or get out you disobedient one.

Corps meeting phone hookups.....250-mile radius to attend sunday teachings.......way mag subscriptions mandatory.....etc.

The dirty little secret........twi ISOLATES followers and then, years later threatens to ISOLATE them from the group.

Yeah, once you've cut off all support systems and family and submitted to twi, they are in a position to ISOLATE you.

The old switcheroo........they know how ISOLATED you'd be without them and use it as a club over you.

It's a dirty little game twi plays.

Not difficult to imagine at all. I remember in the later 1980s, after having made the break from TWI, but still being interested in fellowshipping with the people who left at the same time -- but before offshoots had really developed into any kind of semi-sophisticated system. At that time, I vividly recall imagining that twi would become a legalistic organization. That's the word I remember using -- legalistic. But I thought it would take longer to get there. Of course, I had not, by then, really come to grips with how outrageously mental Martindale was. So, I missed the time frame and didn't really put my imagination into developing the details, but 25 years ago, I saw it heading in that direction.

And there is no question that your description of the social isolation is very much on the mark.

If you wrote a book of your twi experience.....

1) What would you title your book?

2) Where would you devote your greater message and chapters in the book?

..a) Twi's deception and betrayal

..b) Manipulation and exploitation

..c) Friendships, relationships and adventures

..d) Learning wierwille's version....and then, rejecting much of it

..e) A whole new world of learning after those youthful days in twi

..f) Other?

I would entitle my book.......BEWARE OF SUBTLE INDOCTRINATION: My Life Story

In my book, I would subdivide it into four parts -- three or four chapters each

1) My background and desire to know God......and twi's subtle deceptions

2) Classes and programs that deliver a collective message and, stealthily oppress individual boundaries

3) The struggles and challenges with coming to grips with twi's seduction and betrayal

4) Walking away from twi, starting a new life and a family overcoming obstacles to achieve accomplishments

Yeah, like I'm really going to take the time to write a book.....

Actually, it looks like you are already working on the book whether you know it or not. You have a rough outline already set forth.

You've been writing early drafts of various aspects of it on GSC for some time.

You might be surprised how natural it comes out from here.

When I first started writing (mid 1990s, essays/op-ed columns mainly), I had to sit down to the keyboard and type or else it would spill out all over the floor in front of me...

That's how I described it to people when they asked me how I got started.

I've not yet published a book, but I have a first draft of the manuscript already written. It chronicles the independent redistricting process in Arizona

from December 2010 through adoption of the maps that are in use for the current election cycle. Americans throughout the country will see independent redistricting be adopted by citizen

initiative in many states before the next redistricting cycle begins in 2021. Not that I will have anything to do with it other than to have described what took place in Arizona this time.

I can say without equivocation that the practice I had writing about my 12 year experience in TWI, (the writing beginning in the Fall of 1997 or so when I found Trancenet/Trancechat) was invaluable to me.

It doesn't even matter if anyone ever read what I wrote. It did a lot for me.

The insight I gained reflecting on the subtleties of the subculture/indoctrination/social interaction (and some of the same or similar things you mentioned in your list) helped me

develop insight on interactions in political environments and situations.

So, my encouragement to you is -- WRITE. Write YOUR story. It's a book that needs to be written.

You will be better for it. And as the proverb (Prov 18:16) says, A man's gift makes room for him.

Those who need to know your story will find it.

Yes, lack of life experience and insight kept us at a disadvantage. I cringe at all that but I try and remember that the indoctrination was powerful, at least for many of us. It kept so many of us hooked and unable to think critically about what we were doing.

Recently I re-met a person who tried to warn me about TWI in 1971. That person had done some homework and even back then, found one of VPW's early edition books, and realized the group would repress my freedom of expression (at the very least). This person described that 1971 version of myself as unable to self-reflect. I was so obstinant. Yes, that is a trait I've battled with all my life, but in my youth that was a huge factor in my inability to listen to a sound-minded person trying to get through to me. Specifically, the obstinacy centered around the belief that GOD himself had led me to TWI. That trumped any reasoned thoughtfulness about the downside of dropping out of college and becoming the fanatic I grew to be. Thankfully, I now have a mature relationship with that long lost friend. I've been lucky they are so forgiving of my younger self!

Indeed, that indoctrination was powerful. I chuckle (only mildly) reading your description of the encounter in 1971 and your stubbornness. That WAS 41 years ago. I didn't learn anything about self-awareness, introspection and self-reflection until I was in my mid-30s. We were, most certainly just kids. Whatever led us to TWI certainly isn't as important as that we can reflect and re-evaluate our experience now.

Frankly, I also smile warmly at reading that description which to me is evidence that you've done a wonderful job at reflection and putting more of the pieces of the puzzle together now.

Same for Skyrider's description of life on the wheat farm.

My experience, on the other hand, was a more or less typical big city experience in a single parent family most of the time. My experiences were focused on academics and a couple of extra-curricular activities. Clarinet lessons in 4th grade; choir all four years of high school, drama club with minor forays into JV wrestling and baseball. Those experiences didn't give me the insight you got, Skyrider, but gave me a foundation upon which to understand life once I was exposed to it. And even some of the way corps in residence experience was beneficial, despite being less than optimal in how it was conducted.

Anyway, we are the sum total of our education and experiences up until today.

I'm also pretty thankful for greasespot and its predecessor forums for having given me a platform to develop my writing skills by writing about the 12 years I spent involved with TWI.

I have a book or two that are waiting to be written, though not likely about TWI.

i don't know - i was thinking about this recently - can anyone give me advice so that i can have a renewed interest? thank you

I don't read the bible much, but when I do, I prefer the New International Version.

Every single one of the comments on this thread are tremendous with insight. I only wish I had seen those red flags. Not that I would have been any more capable than anyone else to do anything about it. The only serious thought along those lines I remember having was at the ROA or corpse week the first year 9th corps was in res. I remember thinking it would be nice to have a life where I could make the decisions on the direction I would choose to go. Of course, with all the indoctrination about being a doulos, that ended up being just a fleeting thought. I was still in my early 20s then and didn't have the life experience or insight to identify the list of red flags skyrider named. Even though in my late 50s, those all seem incredibly obvious.

Another point about this thread, it doesn't feel like complaining. Rather, it's genuine reflection on what we went through. Don't get me wrong. If someone wants or needs to express deep feelings about their experiences, I'm all for it.

Bravo to each of you.

I admit I never believed it for a minute. I was a twig leader for years, ran 2 classes, advanced class grad-basically everything but corps, and just walked around with that unbelief about tongues and interpretation. Which is not to say that I didn't try to make int and prophecy as spontaneous as possible. With the amount of way think and Bible study in my head, it became easy to rattle off words of exhortation and comfort. I justified it by hopefully doing it in love and caring about the people in the room, and in that regard, thought the messages WERE edifying, whether God put them there or not. At the time I reasoned that was how God worked in you, and went on running twigs and manifesting year in and out. But I thought then and still think that sit in the way was gobbledy gook-I can't speak to any experiences outside of the way structure.

I believe there is something to that explanation. The only thing I am certain about in this discussion is that none of us will be able to do anything other than say what we believe we did, what we believe took place, or what we do not believe.

Can there be any tangible, scientific proof to any of these notions or ideas? I don't think so. But if anyone can prove me wrong, well, I'd be interested in hearing how that could be done.

I'd love to see it sometime too - and a lot of the other items that Steve references. His posts always make me think, reassess, give better insight into.

Maybe if Steve permits, we could put his thesis on the Documents section so that anyone new here can also have a good think about what SIT means?

Just so no one misinterprets my intent, it is just to throw my two cents worth into the discussion.

While there clearly is NO new thing under the sun, there are new things to each of us from time to time.

Raf's contribution, to start this thread, was a new way for me to look at the situation.

For me to describe, with any degree of confidence that I would be truthfully analyzing my experience and actions during my

time involved with TWI. (I did not continue the practices of sit, tongues with interpretation and prophecy long after splitting off into loosely affiliated home groups.

Eventually even those grew tedious and repetitive and boring, hence non-productive..

I encountered pentecostal groups prior to twi that tried to lead me into sit, but didn't succeed. Ultimately, I think I tried not to immitate anyone. There may have been some inspiration. but it could also belargely made up.

My bottom line is that I didn't know I was inspired ir making it up.

I do believe that in his created state man did possess perfection. But, after the fall he would take on a gradual state of deterioration which meant that it would take a millennium to get to the 120 year life span. So, down through the ages, Moses, Noah, Methuselah lived 600 + years.

As far as how biblical people measuring time then, it raises a good question? Maybe they had a decade that they leaped instead of day.

The factors that may have been an influence for longevity generally include nutrition, exercise, and rest. In terms of nutrition, one would have to study what was available for them to eat. How much animal derived food did they have and how much processing did they subject it to? They probably weren't putting a whole laboratory worth of chemicals in their food. They may have had a wide range of herbs and grains and fruit. Because they had no where near the amount of population then that we have now, they didn't need to have elaborate factory farms that mass produce poultry, shove animals in overcrowded barns where they ended up hip deep in feces. And most people had to actually do hard work to make a living. That's why I think they may have lived longer in the earlier days of humanity. Proximity of larger populations and raising and processing animals for food all had to be handled carefully to prevent food borne illness. Since they may not have had any kind of sophisticated medical practices back in their day.

I might be rambling...

From what I've been witnessing on the web, the Wierwille legacy seems to be experiencing a substantial resurgence of support rather than fading away.. It's like an insidious virus you can never get rid of.

Where have you been hangin' out to get that impression?

My hunch about the topic of this thread: sense of belonging. Feeling as though one belongs to a team that is committed to a higher purpose or goal

is a powerful motivator. That's why they use expressions suggesting those who have remained are part of some special "remnant."