Rocky

A lot of us either weren't born yet or simply never saw any "glory days". VPW may or may not have actually existed . . . point being he never mattered.

TWI is like a battle for a memory.

I get your point, now, I think.... well, maybe at least a little bit.

In the minds of many of the people you know or knew in or from TWI, Wierwille is simply a myth. A story around which their church revolves.

And that makes sense, to me anyway.

Of course, to those of use now in our 50s and 60s, many of us did know him and have direct interaction with him. To us, he's not just a myth, but also a series of memories.

In our twig area no preferential treatment for people no matter how much they gave but I did notice that entering into the corps there was definitely preferential treatment given to those with plenty of moolah. One example was a family kicked out because of a child with some health issues but another well off couple when the husband developed slight pneumonia he was given something like 6 months to walk the grounds doing nothing except sighing lol can someone spell 'hypocricy'for me

You may not have been asking for any reason other than posing a rhetorical question, but it actually is spelled H Y P O C R I S Y. :)

I don't think corruption is guaranteed after power. Look at Bill Gates and Warren Buffet.

They've given away ENORMOUS piles of money after acquiring enormous piles of money.

By Lord Acton's thinking (the guy who made the comment about power corrupting),

they should have been GUARANTEED to be greedy and grasping.

I do think that power/OPPORTUNITY will AMPLIFY WHAT'S THERE. A generous person will

remain generous, a trustworthy one will remain trustworthy. Those who don't commit

crimes primarily because they'd get caught, however, would probably become criminals,

and the greedy will remain greedy.

Yes, strength of character is important. And is not a function of one's personal relationship with Jesus (or the bible).

Over the past few months I had an emotional break through related to passive aggressive behavior, it's really the best thing that has happened to me in the last 30 years I think. I was having anger issues, anyway I subscribe to Audible for audio books, because I read so much I just don't enjoy thumbing through paper or scrolling a screen when it's a difficult self-help book. So I'm dealing with an unbearable living situation and there is this pattern of actions that make me angry but I can't deal with it directly because of the other person it back fires every time. I do a search for passive aggressive, and find this awesome book "8 Keys to Eliminating Passive Aggressiveness" I'll leave the link here for folks to look at.

Anyway when I first started listening to it I became very angry, LOL I guess I needed this book to help me. After listening to it the 3rd or forth time I started to feel a release, so it helped me uncover a very serious behavior I suppressed emotionally something that is a keystone to my suffering over the last 40 years, way before TWI, and really something so hazardous to my emotional health I couldn't believe I did it and it was a part of my broken "deal-with-it" tool set. So I had to buy another book to heal from this other thing.

So here I am getting ready to turn 46 in Feb. and looking at a new start. I've learned that suppressing emotions is toxic and usually the gate keeper is anger, violently suppressed anger. I'm seeing things differently, and I don't desire to go out of my way to make people angry just to get a rise from them.

Seth

Thanks for sharing your insight. :)

How about "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."? I don't know if a study supported this but it's been an acute observation. Kind of sobering when you think about it. I would like to think that if I had a lot of power over people, their careers, etc. that I would be kind and fair and supportive. But history is full of people that once they get the power they use it for selfish gain. What makes me think I would be any different? Then again, someone who's honest caring and supportive of others doesn't make good news copy. Maybe we just never hear about them.

There's no doubt power/authority over others is a hallmark. How that power is a function of self and group dynamics is something that can be studied and insights developed.

I just found this book which may provide key insight on the topic of this thread: Brainwashing: the science of thought control.

The first time I heard that verse was in pfal. It was presented as the foundational verse for a 34 hour class. It sounded positive. I was interested.

Back in elementary school I was taught that some words are compound words. Bookkeeper. Helpmeet. Even the obscene word m#####f##### is a compound word. Let's go further. Some thoughts are compound thoughts, eh? John 10:10 is a compound thought. Thief/I (Jesus). Steal kill and destroy/have life and have it more abundantly. This is not the only verse which compares what God wants and what the devil wants, is it? I can think of one...

Eph.4:31,32 - Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamour and evil speaking be put away from you with all malice...

and be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted (another compound word), forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Clearly, the devil wants bitterness etc. for us, and God wants kindness etc. for us.

quote:... So, John 10:10 - what sticks out for me is a whole lot of $#!TTY memories from the tine I was in TWI. The verse has lost all positive meaning for me.

Hey Jane, if God's so big that He can't be contained in a book, then how come He's so small that He can't heal your heart?

It's also a bogus nugget to build a ministry on.

Is life really all about a fight between good and evil?

If it wasn't all an accident, if it was malicious intent, then there's no need to try and "fix the ministry", to restore to VPW's "original intent", like so many have tried. Because that's generally the spin.

Wierwille was a prick and a charlatan from the word go. Plenty of us struggled to figure out if he started out with honorable intent. I've come to the perspective that no, from the time he started rebelling against the denomination that originally ordained him he had the intent to build an organization that he was the focus, focal point and the entire reason for its existence.

All or most of us idealistic youth who got caught up in his scheme probably had honorable intentions from the start. But that's how things go in cults.

Penworks posted an interesting link to a you tube channel in the cult prevention thread. I watched one of the videos and it sounded like most of the people telling their stories could have been us.

I agree that in the USA we cannot prevent them from forming, but as many of us are trying to do, we can try to prevent people from joining cults. Does anyone else here know about ICSA? They try and educate. https://www.youtube....1HtMvoa8kRcLcig

Thanks for that link. This video clip, "

I care. I just don't personally have the resources to do anything about it.

I also don't think a knee jerk military response would necessarily either solve anything or do any good.

Solutions to major world complex problems generally require studied, complex, rational consideration before rushing off half-cocked into another endless war.

Solutions to major societal problems at home also require rational consideration and investigation into root causes before potentially successful attempts to solve those problems can be formulated.

It's been a LOOOOOONG time since I believed Johnny Townsend's BS about everything in and about life being simple.

In Way World, we were told that to be this way (harsh, confrontational, etc.) was being loving. They used this verse:

Galatians 6:1

Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such a one in the spirit of meekness, considering thyself unless thou also be tempted.

They took that term meekness and made it out to be "meekness to the word" instead of "gentleness" or "humility" as it is rendered in other version of the Bible other than the King James.

Then they used this verse:

I John 5:2

By this we know we love the children of God, when we love God and keep his commandments.

So, to love the children of God, we have to keep his commandments - not actually LOVE them, not be NICE or CARING to them - NOOOOOOOO. WE DO THE WORD AND THAT IS ENOUGH AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, TOO FRIGGIN' BAD.

And then tie in the whole "be in control of your emotions" stuff and you have a really big mess on your hands.

People in TWI changed Love (which God IS) into "DOING THE WORD" ™. We do the Word when we RESTORE each other when they are at fault by being meek to the WORD.

It all gets screwed up from there.

THIS is changing the truth of God into a lie and worshipping and serving the creation (The BIble) more than the Creator.

2 Peter 2:3 NIV

In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

Excellent analysis, IMO. Thanks for articulating it.

I can remember going back home after Way D, (more intense analog of W.O.W. I'm told). I was maybe 20.

Very harsh reproving my folks, "reproving" left and right. They were proud, never had seen them so happy. That's what they wanted to see. They couldn't get enough. They want "toxic behavior".

The delivery, the harshness, didn't seem to matter. It's just how they talk. It matters to much of the rest of the world on the outside. Not to waybots. Why?

Group norms.

And yes, Stockholm Syndrome.

I find the expression, "the world shrugs" intriguing.

While one inference (Raf stated) indicates your disapproval (Skyrider) of the Ferguson protests, I see much more to that expression.

Whether you mean it or not is certainly something you can clarify. I don't pretend to be able to read minds.

I do, however, read words. "The world shrugs" suggests you believe somebody (we?) should do something about the attack in Pakistan.

What response, by whom, paid for by whose tax dollars, do you believe would be the appropriate response?

Btw, your declaration "people seemingly disturbed

by a grand jury verdict wherein forensic evidence upheld a police officer in

Ferguson, MO defending himself from assault" reveals a lot too.

First, you've apparently passed judgment that a black teenager in an economically depressed community who seemingly committed a misdemeanor offense was rightfully executed.

If that's not what you meant, by all means, please clarify for us.

However, the grand jury declining to indict is not something that in and of itself supports a claim that the forensic evidence cleared Wilson.

The grand jury process is not even close to a trial in front of a fact finding jury and judge.

The grand jury failed to indict because it was given only the information and evidence the prosecutor wanted to give it. Transcripts have already shown that there was prosecutorial misconduct in the instructions one of the prosecutors gave to the jurors about a Missouri statute that had decades ago been declared unconstitutional by SCOTUS.

And, here in America......the juxtaposed position of people seemingly disturbed

by a grand jury verdict wherein forensic evidence upheld a police officer in

Ferguson, MO defending himself from assault. Oh hypocrisy, how art thou?

Defending himself from assault? Really?

Here's your Smoking Gun about the witness who allegedly corroborated Wilson's story.

Can I ask if you noticed anything different about them, their "wrath", as compared to when confronted by the "imitators"? Did they really get in your face?

You can always ask. You may or may not be satisfied with whether you get answers to your questions. But it never hurts to ask.

I don't really have recollection of any serious confrontations by LCM or VPW wannabees. That could partially be because I didn't take them seriously.

I think the key may be in the word "wannabee." Young children learn by imitating their parents, siblings and others with whom they come in contact.

That's what happened a LOT with the way corpse. But it took, IMO, a special kind of arrogance and hate to instill the kind of terror in people that LCM and VPW did.

But then again, it made enough of an impression on me that I let it adversely impact my family relationships. Which is what I was saying that perhaps inspired the

first post on this thread.

FWIW, Raf didn't need to read minds or exercise any form of clairvoyance. He simply read what you said, Skyrider and articulated reasonable inferences easily made from them.

I think I can only get a feel for how others feel about this subject, having the common twi experience, on this site. I think I've suggested a couple concepts, at least.

I get the feeling you're aware of something more detailed somewhere?

I've worked in government and journalism covering government. I'm not aware of anything more detailed proposing control or mitigation of cult risk in society.

Instead, I am aware of how huge of a sociological conundrum the entire notion presents. At this point in world and US history, I don't know that anyone has or can have

any detailed plan, that doesn't infringe on religious liberty, to control cults.

If you're so inclined to commit to years of study of public policy, psychology and sociology, maybe you can come up with something... eventually.

It's such an overwhelming idea that it's difficult to imagine what such a solution could look like.

Yes, I believe there's more than just imitation. By imitation I mean looking up to someone out of a desire to be better.

Coercion, intimidation, flat out fear, is another ingredient, to developing or altering our behavior. Is that what you mean?

Of course. But also that LCM and VPW were not only the archetypes of people who influenced me, I got dosed with their wrath directly, as opposed to second or third hand.

I certainly care.

If we're tracing much of our bad behavior to imitating people who imitated VPW, is he really the source?

Actually, having been in the 9th way corpse, it wasn't just imitating people who imitated Dictor. I was a target of his wrath personally a couple of times.

Government easily regulates issues more precious than religion. Regulating religion, not heavily, not having fingers in doctrine, but perhaps not tax benefits and a little more openness. Religion affects things more important than the religion itself, IMO.

What do you propose?

You can't prevent cults.

You can't prevent evil.

You can educate people in critical thinking skills... that would help. Education in how to debate properly and disagree with civility. Education in how to spot manipulators and con artists. Logic... How to spot fallacies. How all-or-nothing thinking is incorrect.

All of that is pretty lacking in our society now. It took heading to GSC for me to learn a lot of them. I never learned how to argue, just how to listen and respect my elders. Even to the point where I wouldn't argue with my husband about anything after we were married, because he was supposed to be my head. Not so much now. Now arguing is almost a fun way to pass the time when we get bored. I never knew you could argue with someone, never come to a shared opinion, but still respect and love that person.

Along with that education -- which probably is most feasible in the family/home -- there would need to be nurture of each person's emotional development to maturity... which is not something society today seems to do well across the board. Some do, some don't.

Are you saying you've gone down that road?

Are you saying your comments are just idle chatter? You asked questions. Have you actually pondered how they might be answered?

The road I've traveled includes pondering questions of group development and maintenance as well as, on many additional issues, awareness of political processes such as legislating.

Maybe YOU don't need to. You can block out my posts can't you? I don't think there's any learning between us.

Why would I need to block you? And more to the point, if you don't care whether anyone has any idea what you are trying to communicate, why bother?

Thanks for that, Waysider.

I'm totally on board with what Waysider has posted in this thread. And I think JavaJane's comment above is wonderfully on the mark.

I still don't get what Bolshevik's ultimately getting at.

Nope....not just an animated movie.

All dogs go to heaven....

The Pope says so.

Click Here

Having lost my feline companion of 15 years less than a month ago, this idea is among the issues I wrestle with.