Rocky

Here's my response to Raf, I posted it incorrectly within his post:

Raf, thanks and no thanks. I am far from a TWI supporter, I have very personal reasons to resent TWI, especially given the years I devoted to them and to have limb and branch leadership turn on me and my wife to be - basically, you were not allowed to go to the marriage. That pretty much sinched it for us - most of our twig was "forced" to leave, so, we just did an "outside the way" Bible study. Bottom line up front, I think that since I have labeled folks in this forum as overly (almost cultist and at the least, an anti-TWI click)that they should evaluate themselves, I see there stance as: I stand for nothing but only stand against something. Pointing that out does not make me a defender of TWI. Now, with regard to some of the folk (teachers, researchers, limb leader) who left TWI and my yet to be determined support of them (STF), I find it a bit offense by the folk who visit this forum to attack those posts that I have made, interpreting that since I do not jump on their band wagon than I must, by process of ellimination, be a TWI defender (that's shallow). VPW dumped on my desires to find Biblical truth, he took my money (sharing) and used it for himself (headquarters, Emporia and the Colorado resort), I financially supported corp folk (don't have a clue where they are these days - no thanks there either). I plan to stick around GSC until it no longer fits my purposes. Raf, you can read my recent posts to waysider, et.al. If only having the ability to dis TWI makes you a part of the "in crowd" than I am out.

1) what exactly do you have, in terms of what possible personal qualifications you might have, that would qualify you to rightfully determine what ANY other person, besides yourself, should do?

2) how could you possibly know anything about anyone here that, even if you were somehow qualified, would give you any insight about the people here so that you could actually determine what they should do?

There is no "in crowd" here. Heck, there isn't even any "crowd."

I have to wonder how in the world you develop your expectations for what should happen here. Of course, that doesn't mean I expect you to tell me. I can live with not knowing.

Not that you would necessarily give any serious consideration to anything I might suggest, but it seems like you might benefit from getting clear on what you are looking for and then figuring out where you can find it.

Depending on what gets put on your list, you may or may not be able to reasonably expect anyone here to fulfill those desires.

You might also benefit from insight found in books written by Daniel Goleman (Emotional Intelligence) and M Scott Peck (The Road Less Traveled... and several more excellent books).

Good luck finding what you're looking for. :)

I was watching the news on "The 700 Club" today and there was a story about reciting the "Pledge of Allegiance", that is, allegiance to the flag of the United States.

They reported that a high school principal in Middletown, New York had the Pledge of Allegiance read over the loudspeaker in Arabic. Apparently the school is in the middle of something called "National Foreign Language Week." Parents, students, and townspeople that were Jewish or lost family members fighting in Afghanistan were extremely offended. They complained to the Superintendent and the principal issued an apology. Pat Robertson, host of The 700 lead into the story by saying, "Could this be happening in America?"

Maybe I'm missing something here and if I am, maybe someone can help me understand.

Would you rather hear someone speaking Arabic say the Pledge of Allegiance, or would you rather hear them pledge to destroy the United States and its people? Isn't language simply a means of communication and neither evil or virtuous? Is there something sacred about the English language that surpasses all other languages? What does it matter if the Pledge of Allegiance is recited in English, Arabic, Spanish, French, German or what have you? Are they not all saying the Pledge?

They interviewed some townspeople and one of them said that soldiers fight for the Pledge to be said in English and therefore the principal was being disrespectful. Really? Soldiers fight for an English-recited pledge? Did I miss something? Because I always thought American soldiers fought to defend the U.S. Constitution, wherein there's something called the Bill of Rights that has this amendment that guarantees freedom of speech. By the way, Arabic is not the language of Afghanistan. We'll let the KKK rally on Statehouse lawns spewing their hate, but have someone read the Pledge in another language, no way. Does that make sense?

I would be interested to hear others' opinions. Especially active military and military veterans.

The pledge I took when I enlisted was to uphold the US Constitution.

The rest of the controversy is likely someone intentionally fomenting rage for political purposes.

Indeed, language is only a vehicle for communicating ideas.

I don't have any respect for Mr. Robertson, don't know what his motives may have been, but he probably exacerbated the situation regardless of his motives.

This link might be somewhat related. I recently learned about other (BCE) religious figures whose stories bear an uncanny resemblance to Jesus' story as presented in the 4 gospels.

Coincidence?

So hiway29, what's a CT? If there is a way to send her a message, let me know. I don't have a clue who Steve Strzepek is but suppose that has something to do with the CT - maybe a heads up, please let me know, is she/they still TWI all the way - I would want to send a friendly note without offense.

It's a state in our country.

Rocky referenced an article that talked about the signs of a cult

4) Confession -- the WC exercise in writing an autobiography, "From Birth to the Corps" was all about demanding that each person reveal things that could and would be exploited by WC leadership (and wierwille) for selfish purposes. That subject has been discussed in this forum before.

What you say, Rocky, about Wierwille when he had all Corps write the "From Birth to the Corps" thing is true. However, I believe that true confession is good for the soul.

In America, and maybe in other parts of the world, we (especially men) try to impress others with how "together" we are. We seem to have a mistaken idea that if things aren't going well all of the time then there must be something wrong with us. We don't know how to be vulnerable, and we don't know how to hurt. So, we hide behind our platitudes about how great things are when they really aren't. The result is inauthentic relationships. We become afraid that others may discover that we are not as "together" as we act and we may lose some sort of social advantage. We don't come clean and involve others in our struggles.

The reality is if we don't involve others in our lives, we are more likely to continue with our same struggles year after year. Confession frees us from that. When I say "confession", I'm simply talking about having a group of close friends with whom you can share your shortcomings without fear of being condemned or ostracized. Not this public humiliation of confessing your sins and being publicly shamed.

We didn't have authentic confession in TWI. We really couldn't share our fears or doubts with anyone. If we shared too much "negative" confession we would eventually get reproved and maybe even demoted.

So having this "together" persona was emphasized in TWI and is also emphasized generally in the U.S.

Yes, willingness to be vulnerable is and should be contingent on having relationships based on trust. I agree emphatically.

Confession of weaknesses, vulnerability and shortcomings, to people who intend to exploit you, however, is definitely not a good thing.

Ever consider the possibility that you've already passed

judgement before announcing you're not here to judge?

Key reflection. Glad you posted it, WordWolf.

Rocky, et.al., I have been in the wrong forum, excuse the mistake. Regardless, all I said was sincere. Did I touch a nerve here, really, "two spits". If nothing matters anymore, than why give two spits, why even communicate with folks still in the search, any of us can deny as much as we want but fact/truth be, we are all in the hunt. Rocky, where do you get off calling anyone insincere when you yourself don't even care anymore, change your motto to: This Dog Don't Hunt. I never have run acrosse this many hardened folks, you can blame TWI for alot but you can't blame TWI for everthing that goes wrong in your life. INSINCERE - have not thought of the concept of that word in a long time, thanks for the reminder, I think it's alot like "Know thy self" Catch you in the correct forum. What do I know, I was never in the Way Corp.

:offtopic:/>

OFF TOPIC.:offtopic:/>

I really don't give two spits what you think about me or anything I write.

But you sure come off as insincere.

So, Rocky, you pretty much assumee that stupidity prevails and you are our savior from it. Your warnings are appreciated. You are left with nothing brother. Is it possible to have beliefs, and fellowship without cult. Your speech is desperation, not really a warning. What do you seek.

I don't assume anything about you. I don't intend or pretend to be anyone's savior. Haven't for a long time.

Thanks for your input.

I don't know that that is assumed. Choices can be illusions. Having no choice is a perception as well. That's a much larger discussion that I don't think there's an answer to.

I agree. I don't know that anyone was suggesting brainwashing and choice are antithetical.

As I mentioned in comment #41 in this thread, the book Brainwashing by Kathleen Taylor provides great insight.

For example, Taylor cites the work of Robert Lifton who has written about Eight Criteria for Thought Reform. (and cult formation)

• Milieu Control. This involves the control of information and communication both within the environment and, ultimately, within the individual, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from society at large.
• Mystical Manipulation. There is manipulation of experiences that appear spontaneous but in fact were planned and orchestrated by the group or its leaders in order to demonstrate divine authority or spiritual advancement or some special gift or talent that will then allow the leader to reinterpret events, scripture, and experiences as he or she wishes.
• Demand for Purity. The world is viewed as black and white and the members are constantly exhorted to conform to the ideology of the group and strive for perfection. The induction of guilt and/or shame is a powerful control device used here.
• Confession. Sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed either to a personal monitor or publicly to the group. There is no confidentiality; members' "sins," "attitudes," and "faults" are discussed and exploited by the leaders.
• Sacred Science. The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or for all humanity, is likewise above criticism.
• Loading the Language. The group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so that often the outside world does not understand. This jargon consists of thought-terminating clichés, which serve to alter members' thought processes to conform to the group's way of thinking.
• Doctrine over person. Member's personal experiences are subordinated to the sacred science and any contrary experiences must be denied or reinterpreted to fit the ideology of the group.
• Dispensing of existence. The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. This is usually not literal but means that those in the outside world are not saved, unenlightened, unconscious and they must be converted to the group's ideology. If they do not join the group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the members. Thus, the outside world loses all credibility. In conjunction, should any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also. (Lifton, 1989)

Whether or not any particular wayfer who never had direct experience in or with anyone in the way corpse experienced TWI as a cult is something I can't speak to with any degree of authority.

However, having spent a year in residence with the 9th wc, and having spent time as a wow ambassador, I can speak for my experience and give specific examples that reflect most, if not all, of the listed criteria.

1) Millieu Control. In residence WC had essentially zero access to popular culture or news. On "the WOW field" we had a small black and white television part of the time but I only remember watching an occasional sporting event. Some of which may not have been a bad thing, but during my 12 years (from ages 19-31) of twi involvement, I knew extremely little about what was going on in America.

2) Mystical manipulation WC (not just the 9th) were threatened with expulsion for lack of loyalty during training on multiple occasions. The ZERO Corpse actually had it carried out en masse. The whole thing was shut down because the entire group messed up. I have no idea whether the alleged infractions were legitimately any big deal, but I doubt it. The explanations for these threats were based on spontaneous spiritual guidance "from god." Which, of course, was total BS.

3) Demand for Purity really, is any other explanation necessary than Martindale's loyalty pledge requirement?

4) Confession -- the WC exercise in writing an autobiography, "From Birth to the Corps" was all about demanding that each person reveal things that could and would be exploited by WC leadership (and wierwille) for selfish purposes. That subject has been discussed in this forum before.

5) Sacred Science MOGFODAT. The Man of God for our Day and Time. Need I say more?

6) Loading the language codes and expressions that people outside of the cult wouldn't recognize or understand without explanation (indoctrination). e.g. SIT, Renewed Mind, SOGWAP, etc.

7) Doctrine over person "Sincerity is no guarantee for truth." Wierwille, about Are the Dead Alive Now specifically taught that people's experiences are wrong and not reflective of truth.

8) Dispensing of existence Mark and Avoid; anyone who left "the Household of God" would be a grease spot by midnight.

People, we were in an intentionally established cult and we were trained (by our own choice to accept the authority of Wierwille, PFLAP, the WC, Twig/Branch/Limb/Trunk leaders) to be obedient/compliant.

We WERE brainwashed.

The only antidote I know of at this point is development of critical thinking and emotional/social intelligence skills. This, of course, is somewhat problematic because many people grew up in families that did not know how to raise children who had critical thinking skills. And today in America, so much of Dominionism/Christian Nationalism is attacking and undermining the only other institution where kids generally have a chance to develop at least some of those skills -- public schools.

More at another time.

So, to Bolshevik's original question and issue on this thread, I believe that no authoritarian social system (government) declaration or law can directly prevent the formation and growth of cults. But individuals can, despite their upbringing, come to protect themselves from manipulation by others.

I hope you all are or can get on a path to develop such skills.

Roy,

I've known the despair you expressed.

Obviously, nobody here at GSC can help you (including me).

Have you gone to any church or tried to make any other friends in your community?

One of the most helpful things we can have is somebody to love and accept us.

That's not really possible on forums like GSC.

I wish I could help you, but I don't know any way to do so, and do not personally have skills that might help you.

I hope you find peace and actual human companionship.

Take care,

Steve

Let's also not forget that the Mormon church recently excommunicated Kate Kelly for standing up for women's rights.

Btw, THE reason excommunication is used as a social discipline strategy (mark and avoid) is because a chief draw for cults and religious sects is the sense of belonging.

I think I would feel it in the universe if you were gone forever.

There would be a serious disturbance in the Force! ;)

I've heard plenty of times folks were asked to go to fellowship . . . . and they just never stopped going. No reason. No reason to stay . . . no reason to leave.

They can't give a reason why they go to fellowship. Some people can just be told "Do this". And they just do it.

Just how they are probed.

Even if a person can't articulate the reason (lack of self-awareness perhaps), there is still a reason.

For many people, for whichever group they lock onto as young adults, the reason is a sense of belonging.

God sent Elijah to the brook Cherith. When the brook dried up, He sent him to Zarephath. Why would God send him to the brook, if He knew it would dry up? Because the brook was the best place for Elijah AT THE TIME, and then it wasn't. Why would God get someone into TWI, then later get him out? Same reason.

George

True that we all see through a different lens. I would hope that an educated guy like you, George, would be able to see that your scenario/explanation is completely subjective and not at all linked to rational reasoning or logic. At minimum, because regardless of whether the biblical record is actually an accurate historical document, there's ZERO biblical declaration of the reasoning you set forth. It's just what you believe the verse you referred to implies.

you can find her on facebook under the name excathedra. :)

So I grew up in the Way. When people ask me if I grew up in church, I don't know what to say. When I first got out, I was in my twenties and I would tell people I grew up in a cult and we'd kind of laugh about it. But now that I'm in my mid-thirties, I don't get the same reaction.

Do you tell people about your involvement in the Way? And, if so, what sort of reactions do you get?

Most importantly, you and I didn't have the opportunity to choose our parents. So, you have no cause for shame.

I didn't grow up in TWI, but as a young adult, I spent 12 years in it, including one year in residence with the 9th corpse.

Many of my peers (who got out in our 30s) have had to account for a lack of professional employment background.

I hope you don't have to deal with that.

What you tell people is your business and you certainly can make it as succinct or elaborate as you want.

In casual conversation with people, trust can be important for developing relationships. You don't have to lie but you can frame your experience however you want.

Just be your authentic self.

If you have to account for gaps in employment because of TWI, it's important to be truthful because if you're not, and an employer looks for justification to fire/layoff,

and they find out you've been less than honest, you become an early casualty.

Otherwise, work out your own salvation, as it were.

If you develop your personal story in a way that motivates you to use the word "cult" that's your choice.

There's really a wide range of options that all can be valid and reasonable.

At this stage of my life (I'm 60), when the subject of religion comes up, I am comfortable telling people I spent time involved in a group that some considered a cult.

But that also helps to explain when I make reference to scriptures in my writing. I write a blog about politics in my state and though I have little interest in any

organized (or disorganized) religious group, I sometimes find a scripture passage to be pertinent.

Have fun and don't be afraid. :)

A list of things that _you_ say meet the 'cult' criteria. (Which may or may not.) One thing I've noticed: Speaking of critical thinking, How does repeating what you were taught in that list about 'cults' = critical thinking? ... Believe it or not, that is what I'm endeavoring to do myself. ... Critical Thinking. Which _includes_ critical thinking re: what a lot of people claim about 'cults'. ... Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, right?

Anywho, just somethings to think about.

Peace. ... Really, this time. ... (I have _got_ to learn self-discipline. )

Hi Garth... Penworks may not want to boast or brag or even suggest she knows better than anyone else but...

She and he husband have done actual academic research (including in many places, not in the USA) that probably did an excellent job of informing her understanding of the items on that list.

I cringe when people use "cult" and "obsession" interchangeably. Take, for example, Rocky Horror Picture Show. It's not a cult film, it's a film that caters to an obsessive social experience. Those are two totally different things.

Yeah, I know how that can be. However, a different -- also legitimate -- usage of the word cult DOES fairly describe Rocky Horror Picture Show. Obviously, two totally different meanings.

So, I'm readinga story this evening about documentarian Alex Gibney's latest project, an in-depth expose of Scientology, and found this paragraph:

"But he feels that the message of this film applies well beyond Scientology or any one organization. "You can see how abusive institutions get when they have a lot of power and money and when they become guided by a small group of people at the top, perhaps even one person," he says. And then there's a theme that resonates across any number of religions: "It's really hard-wired into all of us, the psychology of wanting to find certainty in faith that allows you to do the most reprehensible things because you believe the ends justify the means."

I REALLY like the expression "prison of belief." I think it describes cults very well... including the one we (here at gsc) have in common.

That was what I saw (in hindsight of course)

TWI did teach us to question, to analyze, to think, but only outward, never at what TWI was teaching

And that could be why many of us just don't go to ANY church or fellowship/ministry and some have even renounced Christianity.

I know that I went to a non-denominational church for a couple of years in the 1990s. I had to consciously overlook anything having to do with the trinity...

Eventually, even that church, which has some wonderful people, grew tedious for me.

How's this? ... YOU'RE GONNA BUR** --Wait a minute. Just kidding. Lemme try again. :-)

But seriously, let's just agree to disagree. You have your opinion. I have my opinion. And that is about as close that we're gonna get, Ok?

Peace, and I'm serious about that.

Indeed. But I would suggest that you'd find the book I linked to in an earlier comment to be interesting and would expand your insight on the subject.

How's this? When certain people accept instructions that a church/group/*CULT* :-) gives, with _them_ it isn't called 'brainwashing', because it is the kind of instruction that _they_ chose to accept. (And they _did_ chose to accept it, coercion and all even.)

When _they_ chose not to accept it / chose to throw it away, _then_ it became 'brainwashing'. To them. ... This happens all the time; be it with fringe 'cults' or mainstream churches, and anywhere in between. ... The cult term _used_ to be a (more or less) neutral term. It now has become a matter of opinion; personal, highly-charged emotional, _loaded_ opinion.

Why can't you accept the fact that at one time in your life _you_ chose to believe those stupid and strange beliefs, and at a later time in your life _you_ rightfully saw them as stupid. ... _You_ were devoted to them. _You_ were excited about them. Now you are no longer. Simple as that. ... Take responsibility for what you chose to believe. And for what you chose to throw away.

Now, does that absolve any and all blame from Wierwille and Co. _NO_! They are the ones to BLAME. For all the abuse. ... Note the difference.

We accepted TWI beliefs. Strange, stupid, weird, loaded with conspiracies, etc., etc. And coupled with "You are going to suffer at the hands of GOD/Satan if you do not comply." like threats. ... Ok, there was coercion. That I'll accept. That did happen. ... So did similar coercion happen in more mainstream yet fundamentalist churches. ... Yet, many of us got out on our own. (Ok, many of us were thrown out. Much like more mainstream yet fundamentalist churches as well.) ... More evidence that fundamentalist thought = cult mentality?

And yet many people left those groups on their own, as well, ... did they not?

Anyway, we're going in circles, so I think I'll bow out. ... _Believe_ what you will.

Peace!

As you suggest, we were complicit. That's indisputable. But Garth, how much study of the science of brainwashing have you done?

"Exception: If careful evaluation of the hypothetical outcomes of continued investment versus accepting current losses and ceasing all further investment have been made, then choosing the former would not be fallacious."

Because the decision would be founded on a rational analysis, rather than the sunk cost fallacy.

I still believe that teaching critical thinking skills as part of public education would help a lot of this... As well as teaching proper debating techniques. How to recognize fallacious arguments and premises...

I didn't develop any of that until I left TWI.

Plus, it would help with all of the stupid things people share on the interwebs. I could cut down on my Snopes link posting.

In a perfect world...

Excellent point.

Here's a free (except for the time required to read, watch lecture videos and complete assignments) and convenient way to begin exploring how to recognize fallacies and develop critical thinking skills.

MOOC on Coursera.org:Think Again -- How to Reason and Argue.

It looked like you wrote this, Garth. You mentioned a scientific method. And rightly dividing.

You're alluding to something?

I don't know what Garth may have been getting at, but Brainwashing HAS been scientifically explored. That's what's in the book, the link to which I posted in a previous comment.

"His parents paid to have him deprogrammed in November 1984" -- And you still wonder why people like me still rail on against 'the science of mind control'. ... Deprogramming? You haven't gotten beyond that failed (and often illegal) tactic? Are you serious?

And what deception did that entail, hhmmm?

Rocky, you _believe_ you were brainwashed, 'cause a book says you were? No proof. No proven science. Just a book telling that you were, and that's good enough for you? ... Look at what I said to Wordwolf about his point re politics being dead on. Tell me, which political party is the one that is the 'cult', hhmmm? ... Republicans? ... Democrats? (I think I can make a pretty good guess what your opinion would be. )

Bolshevik,

"What does law have to do with the scientific method? It's Law. Religion and science often bow to it." -- No they don't, nor even should they always. ... So what's your point?

"Religion is in the mind. Just a facade, a tool." -- True that.

Did I say "the book says you were brainwashed?"

The book describes and details the science behind the phenomenon. It didn't tell me anything about me or our experience.