Rocky

quote:

No matter what "evidence" you could cite, the conclusion that twi was and is a "cult" is a subjective feeling. My inclination that twi was valuable is also a subjective feeling. There are some things that only God can totally sort out.

John, there's plenty of subjectivity when you're unfamiliar with how objective criteria on cults squarely marks this subculture for what it really is.

In addition to all the other points made about the twi "rationale" for abortion, it all goes back to the underlying concept for ALL of wierwille's private interpretation of scripture: self-justifying rationalization.

I don't believe that contradicts any of the things mentioned by others in response to MRAP's question.

Tying it back to the main thread topic/title, compared to wierwille's lusts -- money, sex and power -- ALL of it trivialized EVERYone except him. That's how I see it, anyway.

How about the fact that this "cornfield cult" you keep denigrating had over 100,000 people take pfal foundational, and got to be in the top 5 most dangerous religious cults. Satan was very concerned about us. We even got Bob Dole talking about us. AND!!!!! We had people from all over the world coming to the ROA. How's come we even got THAT far if God wasn't involved. You speak with forked tongue. AND!!!! People actually got delivered from many things. TWI would have fizzled out before the end of the 60s if God was not healing and blessing people big time. No genocide here, let's deal with reality!

Some big, fat claims in that brief paragraph. And not one of those claims has any factual basis.

Okay, we all might reasonably accept that more than 100k souls took the PLAF class. But "top 5 most dangerous religious cults?" Perhaps that was just snark. But in the context you set forth, I don't know how your "Satan was very concerned about us" is snarky.

"People actually got delivered from many things." Vague, subjective and without any reference point that can reasonably be taken seriously. There's more... but why bother. "let's deal with reality!?" Do you mean some obnoxiously unscripted television show? Because you didn't present any other kind of reality.

At one time, with FIVE CAMPUSES.....twi needed a corps director.

The corps director set the agenda/pace for all corps coordinators.

Now....all the inrez corps could meet in a small kitchen.

And.....how many of those corps coordinators have abandoned twi?

1) Craig Martindale (ousted)

2) Ger@ald Wrenn

3) W@yne Cl@pp

4) R@lph D.

5) John Ly-nn

6) Rich@rd Th0mas

7) Lind@ McD

8) D@ve Bed@rd (asst)

9) P@ul Mosqued@

10) Fr@nklin Sm!th (?)

11) D@ve St@ndage

12) St#ve Str#zpek

13) George Hen-ley

14) Tom Jenk!nson

15) ....and others

Many other assistant corps coordinator have abandoned ship, as well.

Not sure about the H0rneys.....but the only ones who seem to cling on

are the Moneyhands and F0rts [who wanted secular careers].

So, give Ch@ndler G. another 12 years and see what develops......the title

of "a big fish in a small pond" has a short tenure of opportunity.

.

As far as I know, the only one in that list who has REALLY and truly abandoned the twi mindset is Ralph D.

Several others who are on facebook still try to make a living by doing their own (offshoot) ministry thang or some variation on that theme.

In fact, I saw very recently that Wrenn was recruiting for some bible class he wanted to start teaching.

I'm not trained health care professional so this is just an opinion.

Wierwille exhibited many characteristics that would typically be associated with psychopathy. He really didn't care about the consequences others might suffer because of his actions. He didn't care about the lives and futures of the people he was affecting. He simply lacked the ability to feel empathy. In her book (Losing The Way), Kristen recalls an incident in which she asked VP what he would do if he were caught in his wrongdoing. He casually shrugged it off and said he would lie. That incident reveals a lot about the true nature of the man.

We were manipulated by a man who had mastered his deceitful craft of satisfying his own wants and greeds. Being youthful and full of idealism, we were no match for his schemes.

I realize there are people reading this who will disagree with me. That's fine. All I ask is that you do a bit of personal research on psychopathy and sociopathy. Compare your findings to the accounts that have echoed through the halls of GSC for almost 2 decades.

Sure, we made the decision to follow his musings but our decisions were often times founded on incorrect and/or deceitful information.

That much of the blame falls clearly on the shoulders of Victor Paul Wierwille.

P.S.

(You know he wasn't really a "Dr.", don't you?)

Links provided for reader convenience.

I've written about psychopathic politicians (other than on gsc) and agree completely.

Yeah, and if you go there in the dead of winter....

I get the sense that being there would have the same vibes

as the vacant Colorado hotel in The Shining

Those two little girls represent Rosie and Don-na.

.

After reading King's time travel novel last winter, I've become a fan. He's brilliant. :evildenk:/>

Irony of ironies, the loan taken out to buy the Emporia KS campus is documented in Uncle Harry's book I believe. Or maybe Mrs VPW's BATS book. Actually that would make an awesome study for a twig presentation - "A Study of Debt" from the founding two Sec/Treasurers of TWI as seen through Way biographical books. I don't believe a loan was obtained to buy the Gunnison CO property. Oh, and then there's a discussion to be had about how much was lost in the sale of each of these properties - I want to hear that discussion from the Sec/Treas who would turn the lights in the bathroom off on you all the time.

TWI still operates the Gunnison property, regardless of who holds legal ownership. A couple of my 9th corpse bruddahs visited it this summer and took some pics because one of them knew somebody that was in charge at the time.

The property is impeccably well kept, not as rustic as it was back in the day and... hauntingly vacant.

Hi all fellow GSérs ! I need a little help with a research programme I am doing concerning demerit point systems world wide. These are 'points' taken off your drivers license along with a fine for excessive speed, dangerous driving etc... after accruing a certain amount a persons drivers license will be suspended for a time period. I know some states use this system, just not sure which ones ? thanks in advance !!

In Arizona, those points are also used to increase premiums for liability insurance.

http://azdot.gov/mvd/driver-services/driver-improvement/points-assessment

Google is a wonderful thing... most of the time. ;)

A Timeline of My Twi-Observations

12) Twi was a one-trick pony....Run classes [move the word]. Repeat. [ Lather, Rinse, Repeat. ;) TRUTH.]

13) Individualism was stifled at every turn. Twi moved in herds, in groups. [ TRUTH!]

14) Treated as sheep, yet no TRUE shepherd. Wierwille/Martindale were self-centered...and worse. [yes, as a matter of fact, malignant narcissists]

16) Twi was NOT a biblical research entity. It was/is a cult of persona and wierwille mystique. [TRUTH]

17) Guess I never discarded my critical thinking skills --- before, during or after twi.

18) I could smell the Chris Geer deception within 10 minutes at 1986 Corps Week.

19) Like many others, I stayed longer than I wanted to keep marriage/family intact. [Congrats to you. Life not wasted]

20) I treasure upright principles. My integrity I hold fast and will not let it go. [bRAVO!]

In hindsight, I tend to think that I romanticized the ideal of biblical research in twi and spiritual liberty. The pfal class opened a door that I thought, for a time, would welcome all into a grand living room of love. But within a few short years, the more I was around wierwille and his leaders....I could sense that there were other agendas at work. I believe that lots of others saw it too.....and exited.

In my youth, it was fun and exciting to live the commune lifestyle. Lots of spontaneity, fellowship and variety every day, every week. Going to the roa and sleeping in tents and staying up all hours of the night. The beauty of youth, eh? But as one grows older....marriage, family, education, advancement, careers, community/church involvement, etc become the vocal points and that youthful zeal is restrained to more important issues. And, especially when one sees the manipulation and exploitation of twi....it's quite simple to refute such youthful meandering.

Lot's of great insight in that reflection. LOTS.

Even VP did not come across like that. There were just as many dissenters under VP as LCM, but it was under LCMs watch that the wheels came off.

"Dark side of TWI????? Show me something that doesn't have a dark side.

1) Wierwille disposed of dissenters just as quickly and vehemently as Loy did. Loy, however, was more bombastic about it.

2) Are you suggesting that we should excuse twi's dark side because "everybody has one?"

I can see that religion might have to handle criticism differently than mainstream culture. Religion has to juggle their God, who is holy and perfect and cannot be disrespected,with their people who are imperfect and capable of doing any unspeakable thing anyone else could possibly do. I can't picture the catholic church or any other religion allowing anybody to promote music or literature displaying their "bloopers".

But criticism is healthy. Even in scripture we're supposed to check and balance ourselves (Gal. 6:1, Rom. 12:2, etc.). Countries and religions which are extreme in suppressing criticism tend to stick out like the sore thumb that they are. IMO what has happened to twi wouldn't have if certain things had been addressed freely. But they couldn't because...wasn't John Schoenheit's life threatened if he told anyone what he knew about certain things? Sounds like suppression to me. I guess the only true 'rock stars' of twi culture are here.

Criticism can be healthy... if the foundation of that which one criticizes is legitimate to begin with.

Regarding cults, the concept of criticism is anathema because exclusion of critical thinking is a critical success factor for cults from the start.

If wierwille had not suppressed criticism, he wouldn't have been able to build the abusive subculture that was and is The Way International.

Maybe because I was recruited to TWI as a teenager in college I have a hunch that young people need more education about religion so they recognized a sales pitch for a cult when they hear it.

I don't mean education IN a religion but ABOUT religion and its power. So, I'd like to recommend a book by Stephen Prothero titled Religious Literacy: What Every American Needs to Know--And Doesn't. I wish I'd read that when I was 18 years old!

Prothero is a Christian and a scholar who writes in a way the general public can enjoy. The cover of the book states, "Provocative and timely...combines a lively history of the rise and fall of American religious literacy with a set of proposed remedies." - The Washington Post.

I am a firm believer in reading good educational material like Prothero's to help me, as well as poetry, fiction, newspapers, whatever...without censorship.

Full disclosure -- I am no longer a Christian, but an agnostic with a Buddhist sort of spirituality. I say that because I like people to know I am not a defender of any kind of "doctrine," but a defender of free inquiry and free speech, which is why I like to visit (and lurk at) this site. While in TWI, those freedoms were not respected, as least in my experience. I paid a high price.

So, does anyone else have a book they can recommend or other actions we can take to address cult prevention besides keeping GSC open and sharing our experiences whenever appropriate?

Cheers,

Penworks

Yes, as a matter of fact, I do. I recently read a book of short stories written by E. L. Doctorow. One of the stories is about a cult and cult leader.

The story title is Walter John Harmon. It was published in the New Yorker magazine in May 2003.

I'm confident former wayfers will find a few parallels between the story and their experience in twi.

Can you believe for God to fill a pothole?

THIS guy thinks you can.

Eh, seems like small peanuts compared to casting a mountain into the sea.

From the article, it appears that the mayor couldn't pray his townsfolk into approving a tax hike to cover the cost of street maintenance.

This tangent could get political, so let me disclaim from the start. I see it as a problem with the guy's understanding of his god.

As I read it, the potholes presented the mayor with an obvious dilemma.

He apparently decided to believe the Almighty Paving Crew and Street Fixers would take care of it. Might it have been more prudent

for the mayor to ask God for wisdom and the ability to move the hearts (and/or minds) of his constituents instead (to brainstorm ideas

on how to solve whatever underlying problem was occurring in the town government?

I remember LCM talking(or yelling) about how if one person in the room didn't have enough believing, then his (LCM's) decisions wouldn't work.

Believing was so handy that you didn't have to take responsibility for much. You can't control another's believing. But they can negate yours. Unless you believe bigger than them. Unless of course someone else . . . somewhere . . . secretly believing something to thwart you. But you didn't believe enough to know about them?

Stark.

I think the Word states a return on your giving, if not in "this" life, then later; I prefer the later option. Just give and forget about twi, they are mostly greedy for themselves at the top while the miniuns who work in the trenches only keep sending them $. What a great statement about Christianity. We have been screwed over by twi in so many ways, taking our money, our youth or family values.

And then there's the verses in II Corinthians about a cheerful giver.

Hard to be cheerful when you understand the organization to be as your comment described.

However, it IS available to be a cheerful giver when one has an abundance of money and is thoughtful (conscious) about finding places to give where you can

feel confident that good works will be accomplished with what you donate.

I really never saw that to be the case with twi.

A full 40 years ago, while stationed overseas in the US military, I had actually started to save some money for when I finished my active duty. But, because

a fool and his money were soon parted, twi had my savings before I became a civilian. It wasn't difficult to talk a 20-year old airman out of money on the basis of

"it will help move the word over the world." A noble goal. But this (then) twenty-year old didn't have much understanding of the ways of the world and lecherous

cult leaders in 1975.

Yup, you're right. According to a recent 990-T tax return (on the web), they had about $65,000,000 (that's million) in assets at the end of '14. They had no business income (sales, etc.)??? But took a $1,000 deduction even though they had $0 for Charitable contributions.

http://pdfs.citizena...990T_201408.pdf

Would love to see a balance sheet and cash flow statement. Oh, and an explanation of the $1,000.00 deduction.

As an aside, I had kidney problems years ago and one particular time I was bent over in pain. My 4 year old ( at the time ) came over, put her hand on the spot and prayed over me...never had a problem since, been 20 years....also, it just occurred to me...why are there 'manifestations' of holy spirit given as part of the gift ? Waste of time wouldn't you think ? God coulda just said "no manifestations...just pray" !!...let us reason together here brother !! Agape`

Did your four-year old exercise power, or did God?

I suspect that in most instances, we really don't think about that question.

It's certainly not a phenomenon that's easy to figure out.

Yes, Wierwille DID lie, delude, grand stand, seduce, with his statement.

No, Jesus DID NOT lie, delude, grand stand, seduce, with his statement.

Yes, Wierwille's teaching on Matthew 21:22 was an interpretational error. It was not an error in interpretation from the Greek. It was an error of systematic theology. Systematic theology is where a person develops a system for understanding the Bible. Systematic theology becomes erroneous when violence is done to the meaning of what the text actually says in a passage in order to make the passage fit the system.

Wierwille developed a systematic theology, a major feature of which was "there is power in believing." Wierwille had to twist the interpretation of every passage that dealt with believing, because there is NO passage stating that there is power in believing. That's why Wierwille had to come up with so many different kinds of believing, none of whose definitions make sense. That's why this thread exists. None of us can understand what Wierwille meant by "believing" because the things Wierwille taught about believing were all different from what the Bible actually says, and all different from each other as well. The only common thread in the things Wierwille taught about believing was that "there is power in believing," and we can't go to the Bible to clarify our understanding of what Wierwille taught because the idea that "there is power in believing" is nowhere stated in the Bible.

Wierwille didn't develop his system. Its foundational idea was plagiarized. When a question arose, he made up a rationalization on the spot, usually in the form of one of his little pamphlets. It was only later, when the pamphlets were being collected to be published as books, (the original four color-cover books whose general title I don't now remember), it was only then that Wuierwille had to make his ideas cohere, and he did a pi$-poor job of that.

There is no power in believing. There is nothing within us that can reach outside of our bodies and alter physical reality. Signs, miracles and wonders DO happen, but they are ALL results of God exerting HIS power... never the result of us exerting any power of our own.

Love,

Steve

IIRC, they were referred to as "collaterals."

So, getting back on topic: Dangerous Revelation. I don't recall any event where revelation was given to me that endangered my life.

The point is that "revelation" was "given" to those higher up in the twi hierarchy that wasn't really revelation from God. That faux guidance was manipulative of the underlings and put those people in dangerous situations.

Where o where did that "greasespot prophesy" go?

.

Blown away like so much chaff when the wheat gets threshed?

Burned like Loy got when a couple of his victims decided they weren't going to take his abuse anymore?

Perhaps the most important key: put off all rational, logical thought.

3. Shy Away from Change. Mentally strong people embrace change and they welcome challenge.

Their biggest "fear," if they have one, is not of the unknown, but of becoming complacent and

stagnant. An environment of change and even uncertainty can energize a mentally strong person

and bring out their best.

Wierwille proclaimed twi to be......'The New Dynamic Church.'

Yet, NOTHING could be further from the truth. Wierwille's twi was a cyclical clone-fest

around this cornfield cult. Run, re-run and re-rerun pfal over and over and over again.

The doctrine was "Running pfal classes IS moving the word."

The whole thing was a static, never-change, sham !!

Ever notice that the strong-willed, independent souls LEFT RATHER QUICKLY.

They saw the complacent, stagnant cesspool......and it stank.

The strong embrace CHANGE that brings productive results.

LOVE the Forbes article. Thanks for sharing it.

I don't know how mentally strong I was in 1986 when I left, but for the most part, I now emphatically embrace the listed points (and how they are explained in the article).

Other resources along the same lines include books and TED talks by Brené Brown on Daring Greatly; and Gail Sheehy's memoir, Daring. I read Sheehy's book, Pathfinders back in the 1990s and found it tremendously helpful.

Also back in the 1990s, I read several books by the late M. Scott Peck that assisted me in my transition from a mentally weak follower. It was during that time that my writing career (non-paid for the most part) began.

No Steve, you're not retrojecting. He as much said those very words. His logic was that there was no one teaching it so God had to teach him directly. Therefore he was protected.

Logic? Surely you jest.

or Baader-Meihof?

Well, I'm confident I've had the Baader-Meihof thing, but what I was referring to was and is most likely intuition. Putting things together without consciously having thought about or analyzed them.

Okay....now let me give you MY PERSONAL ACCOUNT of wierwille's adeptness

of word of knowledge and word of wisdom....ie these two revelation manifestations.

So....did wierwille receive word of knowledge that my parents were going to die

suddenly after this? No. And further, he specified that they'd be dead IN 5 YEARS.

Wrong again.

Deut 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Yeah, wierwille hid behind that all-inclusive title "the man of God"......a cunning craftiness move.

And, vpw was certainly speaking "presumptuously" [showing overconfidence, arrogance or effrontery].

Wierwille was a blowhard, a braggart, and a deceiver. Perhaps, he just wanted to instill fear into

me so that I wouldn't even consider what the deprogrammers told me.

So, from my own experience.......wierwille gave me a quack-prophecy.

The man was a spiritual hitchhiker......riding on the coattails of other mens' ministries

and biblical work.

He was also a sociopath and a psychopath... and I think we all know he was quite the narcissist.

My link

Maybe it was mentioned already. I think a lot who thought they were receiving revelation or manifesting spirit merely didn't understand naturally occurring phenomena common to everyone. Intuition is one of those things.

I think that's been gone over with SIT. Show an MRI study on SIT to a wayfer and get one interpretation, show it to an outie and get another.

I distinctly remember after taking the AC getting what I now understand to be intuition. That probably goes hand in hand with sunesis (not the greasespot member using that name).

Twinky....I agree with much of what you're saying here, although I see it more as indoctrination

rather than mind-control. The classes.....fnd, int, adv, and others....were tweaked in such a way

that we were beholden to 'The Teacher' and not God's gift to mankind, the Lord Jesus. Lip-service

was given, but the substance and foundation left to the student was FOLLOW WIERWILLE'S TEACHINGS.

...

And, that's why so many of us post here. We are warning others of these dangers and snares.

Is indoctrination really that much different a concept than mind-control?

Yeah, it is indoctrination. But after the indoctrination, weren't we so much more subject to compliance with the suggestions of Wierwille and his minions?