Rocky

Well then you could probably take a pretty good shot if it were a guessing game. Anyway, I also didn't want to imply I knew this person well; I just remember her as I do many others with my infamous TWI memory.

Lemme see, some 9th corps at HQ that fall of 1979,

RN & CN, JK, BP & SP, VD, LR, DB, and I know I dont have them all...

P.S. You have a list...is it of all who were in, or graduated, or what...e.g. a list of graduated 8th corps would not have me on it...

The 9th corps list? The answer is YES. Okay, I'll clarify... it starts with the initial housing list from Sept 5, 1978, has some added (who finished with the 9th but didn't start with the 9th) and also has names crossed off (those who didn't graduate). I am on the list but crossed off, because I didn't graduate.

I didn't mean to start a guessing game, I just by habit don't freely toss names around; should I mention the name here? Initials were LR.

One reason I remembered this little act is that I saw it on my way out of the dorm to get filmed running. We were told that the filming crew was going to film runners in a particular area. This paid off in me getting shown, though briefly and from fairly long range, alone in the center of the picture on "Changed".

I'm looking at a list of 9th corps and there are only two persons on it with the initials LR and both are female.

Hmmm. Well, Jeff Nicely finished with the 9th, and he used to do a heckuva jungle bird call. I can't re"call" who else did bird calls - anybody else remember?

This kind of bird?

Or this one?

or THIS one?

Gees I just had the news on

are you safe over there in LA Hiway?

I think the fires are NW of LA...

Some things that I found relevant as I watched the the CNN program:

1. The survivors commented on how certain smells, sights and sounds can instantly flash them back to an emotional state of something that happened 30 years ago. PTSD? I don't know.

2. They all said that, although they no longer had any use for organized religion, they maintained a sense of spirituality.

3. When they returned to the site of Jonestown, there was nothing left of all the hard work and dedication that had built the place. They hadn't really changed anything at all. It was all so totally futile.

I think you DO know... I think you hit the nail on the head... of course, I'm no professional on the topic.

Or my work supervisor's son, which I've done!

That takes guts! :)

Yep, overwhelming but not unanimous vote, and that's right. Anyone who winds 20 in this era should get some recognition and votes.

The down side is that, if he keeps it up, Cliff will probably eventually go the way of CC...I think the Tribe can keep him through 2010 if they want but I.m not sure...and like with CC, they might deal him off earlier.

Curt Flood sure started something, didn't he?

Well, Webb got more than 20 wins... and Lincicum did NOT... but the Gints didn't give Timmy boy quite as much support as Webb got...

IMHO, two things are key to making a good umpire...desire and temperament. I think of the latter as having no hesitation in calling someone whose guts you hate safe on a very close play.

Which goes hand in hand with its converse, having no hesitation calling your best friend out on a very close play...

I'm awake enough now to realize what I was trying to say before. It's on the 1st and second strike that a caught foul tip is just a strike. If it 'goes over the head' and is judged a foul ball and caught, then it's an out.

The complexities that Lifted Up describe are way over my head.

And it IS now official for Cliff Lee. He HAS been crowned the AL Cy Young winner.

Actually it was not the fact that they had planes ready in Florida it was the fact that they were transporting these people home at all, if it was not a military opperation . They went there of their own accord. If I go to Africa and die there generally the govermant does not take responsibility for getting me home the family does.

Also there is this about the planes:

Perhaps more significantly, the Americans brought in 16 huge C-131 cargo planes, but claimed they could only carry 36 caskets in each one. These aircraft can carry tanks, trucks, troops and ammunition all in one load. At the scene, bodies were stripped of identification, including the medical wrist tags visible in many early photos.Dust-off operations during Vietnam clearly demonstrated that the military is capable of moving hundreds of bodies in a short period. Instead, they took nearly a week to bring back the Jonestown dead, bringing in the majority at the end of the period. The corpses, rotting in the heat, made autopsy impossible. At one point, the remains of 183 people arrived in 82 caskets. Although the Guyanese had identified 174 bodies at the site, only 17 ( later 46) were tentatively identified at the massive military mortuary in Dover, Delaware

No they cannot. At the time of the Jonestown incident, the US military had bigger cargo aircraft than the C-131. These included the C-130 Hercules (equipped with 4 turboprop engines), the C-141 Starlifter (equipped with 4 jet engines), and a limited number of C-5 (at that time the world's largest cargo plane). The C-5 could carry what you claimed. But even the C-141 was substantially smaller than that.

C-131 pics I believe this is comparable to TWIs Ambassador ONE aircraft.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/11/jonestown.cyanide/

Not to be outdone by MSNBC, CNN will air a two hour special, "Escape from Jonestown" a few times... the first of which will be 9-11pm Thursday (today already for many readers...).

Thanks for the link, Excie...

I SUPPOSE it's unChristian of me to see the humor in that Rocky, but it's pretty damdingit funny, to me.

Humor is an interesting thing and what makes a person laugh a phenomena worth looking into. Contrasting images are often funny, where context is so contradictory it's ludicrous. Dogs in sweaters, people in pants obviously too tight, that kind of thing.

Limbug's predicament is that kind of contradictory context, I think - as an entertainer he rips people for something he feels is wrong, and then in his "real" life turns around and has that wrong in his own life. It's hypocrisy, by another name. What we need to correct in ourselves, we criticize in others. Sometimes, not all the time, but in that case of his chronic pain and drugs, yes I think so. His reason was "less wrong" than someone else's reason. How conv-eeeeen-yent!

But he's still a bug. Until he stops with the bellowing, he's a bug.

I think of the expression, "absurd juxtaposition."

I would agree, Chas. Limbug's version of what is and isn't fair and equitable treatment of human failing has adjusted as a result, I'm sure since he's espoused that drug users convicted should be put into jail.

He was arrested for illegal use of painkillers. It looked like his defense worked the system as best as could be done and his own case didn't result in a jail sentence. Defensible use of questionably obtained drugs to support an addiction to counter pain? We have a little of the pot calling the kettle black there IMO. Okay for his circumstance to be treated and rehab'd, others no.

I would hope he's given thought to the basis for his former opinion in light of his own situation. But he's a radio personality, it's unreasonable to expect that because he has the mic that he offers anything useful, correct or of value simply because a lot of people listen to his program, a fact I'm sure we all would agree on. He talks. I guess a lot of people listen but again, why I don't know. He's balances between sophomoric soliliguoys and gallavanting gab that succeeds to generate substantial coin into the cash registers of all involved, so he's a "success". But at what? I don't know.

And I'll STILL call him "Lush Rimbaugh."

I used to get a lot more worked up about geneology than I do now.

Once I figured out that - once one gets beyond two or three generations - those people have only the tiniest of contribution to your life , genetically or any other way. Yeah, they may be your great, great, great grandparent, but they are to about 3 or 4 THOUSAND other folks too.

People are always so keen on tracing their ancestry back to the founding fathers or the Mayflower or maybe some royalty somewhere. But they usually disregard the hordes of horse thieves, [etc.] prostitutes, and nose-pickers that abound in every family tree as well (and in far greater numbers)...

I'm pretty sure that on my mother's side there are several of those types... they are from northern Arkansas, probably from back before the Civil War, but I did trace my maternal grandfather's line back to Germany in the 1700s... and on my dad's side, my grandparents came from Italy around the time of WWI.

Which is exactly why we need some new change in how we gauge and measure intelligence and "entertainment" White Dove. Limbug does well for a college drop out, I'll give him that. He's clearly knowledgable although his knowledge isn't always factual. But critiquing his unique method of assembling information isn't worth it - he is, as you note, a radio personality who entertains and amuses millions who both agree and disagree with him. The fact he's hornswoggled his way onto the radio hardly makes him a point of agreement or disagreement, it just makes him someone who sells advertising.

He's clogging up the air waves though as he may only be appealing to that part of the human psyche that slows down traffic on the road to better see an accident. Verbal train wrecks have appeal I guess. But that voice - he has that humpty dumpty glocked up bellow of a troll gargling mayonnaise. Yuk, for a guy who talks on the radio his voice gives me the creeps

But he should be knowledgable, he should know stuff and make it entertaining to listen to since most of his job is to sit on his fat butt and quack about whatever crosses his "mind". Thankfully he's leaned up the rear view of his seat pants a little and for that he deserves our thanks. Less Limbug is a good thing, however we get it.

I don't dislike him personally and don't listen to him at this point. I did take to checking in every once in awhile at one time but that was more than enough. No, I don't dislike him. I can't take him seriously enough to truly dislike him. But I do think he has the demeanor and personality of a wet baseball mitt. But that's just me.

NO! That's NOT just you!

I prefer to call him LUSH Rimbaugh... after all, he IS an ADDICT.

And Olbermann calls him "Comedian Rush Limbaugh." And let's not forget BILLO the CLOWN.

With the diverse group we have here, I'm sure there's got to be some decedents of Civil War veterans. I've been working on a genealogy project and discovered a gr-gr-gr-grandfather plus some gr-gr-uncles who fought in the war.

Since tomorrow is Veterans' Day, I thought it would be interesting to see who else is a decedent...

Post on....

You've gotten several (gracious) replies, but I'm thinking that those who replied are NOT decedents.

I'm figuring (and from the replies it looks like people were assuming) you meant "descendants."

For I'm certain that any decedents would NOT REALLY be welcome to visit the good ol' greasespot cafe.

:)

Socksness:

That WAS quite eloquent on his part, wasn't it!

And the NL Cy Young goes to ..... Tim Lincecum.

Webb comes in 2nd in the vote. :(

Sorry to insert my opinions in there, and Ill respect other opinions, but thats how I believe politically....... :ph43r:

Why would you feel the need to apologize for inserting your opinion? I don't think anyone is going to be offended that you stated your case...

The way this stuff relates to us is vpw advocated Jonestown as a CIA coop with sinister ramifications which probably added to his paronia about him being watched and twi infiltrated by the FBI, and added weight to his need of armed body guards-mcm*llin and later g*er. It also diffused the relevance and seriousness of Jonestown toward us if we could write it off as some kind of government subversive action. He probably got this information from that cheesy right wing magazine he subscribed to.

That makes sense... and while Wierwille was paranoid to a degree, I don't think it was anything near as bad as Martindale...

Um, Rocky, you know I hate to do this, but...I think WD is right...I can't believe I said that! :blink:

Jim Jones did preach socialism and marxism, was political and taught politically, also approved of communism, went to Cuba to attract converts, was suspected of being atheist, and taught atheistic doctrines, including ones where he called himslef God.

Check out what wiki says about them (wiki is not the greatest source but it encapsulates the whole lifespan of Jim Jones and the People's Temple), also, there are also some good reference points and click throughs that supply added evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples_Temple

It is interesting to note that many gov't documents involving Jonestown are still classified even after 25 years and the Freedom of Information Act-they normally would be available-why aren't they despite many requests for them?

I'm not drawing any conclusions here, many sources indicate more than 270 children were underneath the parents, but from viewing aerial photos of the suicide grounds it seems impossible to fit that many underneath those showing.

Lots of unanswered questions.

Here's a link to an interview with Jim Jones' son a few days after the suicides where he identifies their church with socialism.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27052411/

The mystery of who killed or how did the rest of the people die after the initial 409 were reported, is the main point of departure for the conspiracy theorists, for me, there is not enough evidence one way or the other.

It certainly doesn't offend me, or trouble me in any way that you agree with WD. I'm not saying I believe WD MUST BE wrong... I just don't see any reason for me to have any interest in the conspiracy theories revolving around Jonestown.

That Jim Jones talked about socialism and communism doesn't make any difference to me either.

The fact is, Wierwille talked about politics too. And somebody in TWI talked about books like None Dare Call it Conspiracy, the Bilderbergers, the Council of Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commission, etc. etc.

Wasn't that stuff a part of the Advanced Class on PLAF?

And frankly, I don't see how it relates to OUR understanding of OUR cult experience to know who killed some of the people that died at Jonestown... that is, UNLESS, the story of Jim Jones telling his followers to drink the poisoned kool-aid is complete fiction. And I don't think it's complete fiction.

But by all means, for anyone who is interested in researching the actual events, the contemporaneous investigative reports from/by law enforcement and/or journalistic agencies is fine with me...

Nope the answer.....

Hint -- there was NO answer for you to agree with...

You might want to read some of the supporting documents ,some of the peoples articles who were there, listen to the audio of tapes made there before you become an authority as usual on the subject from an opening paragraph.

Not claiming to be an authority. Have listened to people who were there. That content is included in the MSNBC documentary.

However, you have not presented ANYTHING which compels, teases, or motivates me in ANY way to give even the slightest credence to your silly notions.

Therefore, I MIGHT DO NOT WANT to read some of the, or listen to any more of the ... etc., etc., etc.

And Waysider has a very valid point. But you don't.

What point are you trying to make, WD?

That The Way was not mind controlling cult?

That the abuses that took place there were OK because they were of a smaller scale?

People died as a direct result of TWI doctrine too, though the death toll was not as high as Jonestown.(AFAIK)

Don't bother to tell me they didn't because I knew two such people personally.

The Way was a dangerous cult. It was not a "religious experience".

Unless you personally spent significant time living in a Way communal setting, such as The Way Corps or Fellow Laborers, you really don't know the full scope of what went on at that level.

Oh, but Waysider... you DO know that WD was SPOUSE corps, don't you?

To comprehend this well-financed, sinister operation, we must abandon the myth that this was a religious commune and study instead the history that led to its formation. Jonestown was an experiment, part of a 30-year program called MK-ULTRA, the CIA and military intelligence code name for mind control. A close study of Senator Ervin's 1974 report, Individual Rights and the Government's Role in Behavior Modification, shows that these agencies had certain "target populations" in mind, for both individual and mass control. Blacks, women, prisoners, the elderly, the young, and inmates of psychiatric wards were selected as "potentially violent."[There were plans in California at the time for a Center for the Study and Reduction of Violence, expanding on the horrific work of Dr. José Delgado, Drs. Mark and Ervin, and Dr. Jolly West, experts in implantation, psychosurgery, and tranquilizers. The guinea pigs were to be drawn from the ranks of the "target populations," and taken to an isolated military missile base in California.In that same period, Jones began to move his Temple members to Jonestown. The were the exact population selected for such tests.

The meticulous daily notes and drug records kept by Larry Schacht disappeared, but evidence did not. The history of MK-ULTRA and its sister programs (MK-DELTA, ARTICHOKE, BLUEBIRD, etc.) records a combination of drugs, drug mixtures, electroshock and torture as methods for control. The desired results ranged from temporary and permanent amnesia, uninhibited confessions, and creation of second personalities, to programmed assassins and preconditioned suicidal urges. One goal was the ability to control mass populations, especially for cheap labor. Dr. Delgado told Congress that he hoped for a future where a technology would control workers in the field and troops at war with electronic remote signals. He found it hard to understand why people would complain about electrodes implanted in their brains to make them "both happy and productive."

You have provided NO reason to ACCEPT the MYTH that Jonestown was a sinister CIA plot (or experiment).

What you've shown is complete bulls*hit.

A CIA experiment is far different than a religous experiance, not even close in comparison.

So, YOUR point is that there was some government conspiracy to get hundreds of people killed?

I looked at your link. Right at the start, it refers to a "socialist" cult. I think that pretty much throws the entire spit load of stuff into the category of unmitigated bulls*it.

(Mark Clarke @ Nov 10 2008, 08:34 AM)

Now that we have elected Barack, does that make us an Obama-nation?

I tend to agree.

You agree with a QUESTION?