Rocky

I'm more interested in the ideas than the people who express them. I was neither missing nor making your point. Apparently, we were discussing the same thing from a different angle.

Very true.

It appears that you got my point before I made it.

The question is not whether your words make sense to me or not. I explained some of how and why what makes sense to me. The question is what makes sense to you. We don't "cling to BC as opposed to BCE" because of the need for a leap year. We -- as a culture and society -- cling to it because the force and energy necessary to overcome inertia and make the change is not important enough for culture and society to muster it at this moment. It seems survival of culture and society for our grandchildren beyond six generations is far more important at this time. It matters not to me whether you or anyone else uses BC or BCE as long as I can recognize to what your or they are referring, similar to AD or CE.

Really? Using the word "religion" in this context seems to mix an individual's personal belief with a cultural phenomenon. If you parse those concepts rather than mixing them up, it makes sense to me. It's not so easy to overcome inertia when trying to change culture.

Wax on, wax off, my dudes!

How true. Of course, my immediate thought was that TWI should take a lesson and publish the names of its clergy who have been credibly accused of sexual abuse. But it's really a problem in any and likely every organization with the kind of structure that promotes obedience to those in charge without giving followers adequate rights to confront. That's how and why Wierwille and Martindale and who knows how many others got away with it.

ANAHEIM, Calif. — More than 8,000 members of the Southern Baptist Convention met in Anaheim, Calif., [click this link to read the entire news story for no charge bcuz I subscribe] on Tuesday and responded to the shocking findings of an independent investigation into the handling of sex abuse cases by passing a recommendation to create a database to track sex abusers and a formal group to handle sex abuse accusations going forward. Members of the nation’s largest Protestant denomination also elected rural Texas pastor Bart Barber the next president of the convention. In May, Southern Baptist leaders published a report detailing a years-long coverup of sex abuse within their denomination. For 15 years, the report alleged, leaders said they were not able to compile a database of sex abuse offenders — while they were secretly keeping a list of their own. The same week they released their report, they also released the list, which consisted of hundreds of names of alleged abusers, including many convicted of sex abuse crimes. [...] Rachael Denhollander, an attorney, survivor and advocate who is advising the SBC on its abuse reform measures, said Tuesday the denomination has made progress but still has a long way to go. [Denhollander is the former Michigan State gymnast who first contacted newspaper reporters about the team doctor who had been abusing female athletes for years. That former physician is in prison, and to the best of my knowledge, the warden has forever misplaced the keys to his cell] “It’s 10 years behind everyone else on its understanding of abuse, of best standards,” she said. “I am seeing shifts but I don’t want to downplay the reality that they’re a decade behind.”

Otherwise known as "It's ALL Bull$hit!"

No basis? You seem to be taking Wierwille's interpretation as something every Christian church believed and taught. That's just not the case. Yes, they imagine something that they think has basis in what they understand of Christianity. I'm not arguing for or against Wierwille's interpretation. "There is absolutely no basis in fact for creating such an idea, and there is no proof people will be reunited with their pets someday." Be that as it may, that there may be "no basis in fact for creating such an idea" is unrelated to how cultures and societies develop ideas. Never has been and never will be. Logic is a domain of philosophy (that's which university departments teach logic), not of the Humanities or Social Sciences.

Today's what? Do you mean today's American culture and society? With that specified I'd agree with you. Culture and society never has been about logic. However, I could direct you to numerous books to shed light on the subject, if you'd like. Just let me know. Regardless, I realize it's incredibly frustrating to come to awareness that facts and reality play such a small role in American culture. Btw, I have a t-shirt which declares "Truth Matters: Go Fact Yourself."

Not that you can't figure it out, or Bolshevik, or even Stayed too Long... On the off chance that people come here and actually wonder... Those are actually cultural expressions meant to blunt the pain of losing someone to death. Narratives when rational explanations provide no comfort. You knew that, right?

Indeed. And creates a larger perspective than each individual was able to have on their own.

Stories vs Narratives indeed they are related but not identical. In his presentation, Hagel notes the power of stories for engaging audiences, but says they have limited power because of their closed-ended nature. They have a beginning, middle and end. Once a story resolves, it is more or less over. It is also more about the people in the story than about the listener. It can be retold and serve as an example, but beyond that there is limited opportunity for members of an audience to engage it. Narratives are different, Hagel says, for two reasons. First, they are open-ended—they do not have a resolution. Second, they have an implicit “invitation to participate,” which allows listeners to play a role in what the outcome is going to be. “There is something that is in the process of unfolding. The end is yet to be determined. And…there is an invitation for all of us to participate in that narrative, to help determine what the outcome is going to be,” he says. Hagel goes on to say that narratives operate at personal, institutional, and social levels. Examples of social narratives he gives are Christianity and the American narrative, which motivate “incredible action” over time.

I think you can find out about by searching this website. He apparently considers those who follow him and his teachings these days as "the remnant."

Well, it's ALL a story or a bunch of stories. Humanity is all about stories. But I don't see God making everybody automatons.

Or as Loy would call them, "the remnant."

Seriously? I can't believe you actually think that could happen.

There never was any more detail. It was vague... and the unspoken truth was that you just had to take it on faith. The people recruited into Wierwille's cult in the 1970s and 80s were young people, teens to young adults. FEW had the kind of analytical mind back then to even form the questions you have just posed. If anyone DID form and ask those questions, they either decided on their own that they didn't need to belong to this newfangled subculture or if they did get sucked in (by the undertow, as it were), if they mustered up the gumption to articulate the questions and asked them out loud, they were sent packing (marked and avoided) before they knew what hit them.

Incredibly insightful. Crowley REJECTED fundamentalism and apparently was known for (among other things) his interest in Western esotericism. It seems there are a few parallels between Crowley and Wierwille. The differences seem to be mainly that Victor employed heavy use of the terminology of Christianity but still made clear distinctions between himself and the Christian Church. Wierwille lived the life of a libertine and justified it by verbal legerdemain. Crowley apparently felt no need to hide his libertine lifestyle.

400 miles/charge. It wouldn't be worth it to me if I could only use it for in town commuting. But I could go across the country while only charging a few times with the 400 mile battery pack.

You might have made your point already, ya think?

I've been attached (sort of) to/with GSC for more than 20 years. In the mid-aughts I had some seriously trying times. We survive. Thankfully, you're also a survivor. I'm thankful for your perspective.

That would be a fair bet.