Rocky

Oh myy! Not that I had anything to do with blaming you, but sorry.

Btw, this is a back cover blurb on Power Paradox attributed to Frans de Waal, author of Are We Smart Enough to Know How Smart Animals Are?

I thought you had your own stories regarding Loy? I don't expect he tried to sexually assault you, but haven't you expressed your animas toward him on GSC previously? Waydale, predecessor to GSC was primarily about Loy and his harassment. I'd be surprised if none of that remains on GSC.

Oh? I thought you already knew. From your personal experience and observation. Far be it from me to do anything but defer to you to describe it and/or suggest interested readers to employ the search function at the top right on the page. If you can share some of your experience and observation without being overly triggered, please do. In the simplest terms, from my perspective, he was known to sexually harass, abuse, and coerce women especially employees of The Way Corporation.

From the Guardian story: I agree completely.

That quote sounds very much like Frans de Waal, the primatologist. I first became aware of that in 2018 or 2019 from a TED talk he gave. It resonated with me right away, not necessarily having anything to do with Loy or Victor. But it (both the Power Paradox book and de Waal's TED talk) DOES give indications of how Loy became so easy to knock out of the TWI alpha male position once Paul Allen decided to take legal action. Loy's conduct was so egregiously evil and abusive of the power followers of Victor's ministry tacitly delegated to him, largely without realizing they had done so.

I'll digress. Impact on what? Power is an abstract (and vague) concept until some (not vague) explanation makes it concrete. Dachen Keltner defines it in terms meaningful to human interaction.

Bad things happen... to individuals, groups, society. That's not imaginary. In fact, in the Gospel of John 16:33, Jesus states. That's abstract, until you encounter actual events that cause you trouble. I probably should have used the word "abstract" instead of imaginary. But abstract ideas actually occur in our imagination, don't they?

I can give you a BIG amen on those sentiments. Amen and amen. I bought into it. The hook was so deep it has taken YEARS to unlearn a lot of it. Let me mention again the two books, Bittersweet by Susan Cain and The Power Paradox by Dacher Keltner. I'm confident T-bone, that you'll love them. I found them both at my local public library. Cain spells out that sadness fosters compassion and connectedness. Contrary to the cliche, "power corrupts," Keltner has found through his decades of research, Keltner argues that power is about making a difference in the world. So, his understanding does not incorporate the power of the mind (either God or the Occult) to make things happen just by a matter of our will...er, our believing. Anyway, I already find his book fascinating.

Sure he said a lot. But it still seems overly vague. Impact, I would usually use to describe actions. Do they have impact? The adversary is a concept. Just like mathematics is a concept. Like mathematics, "the adversary" is imaginary. Bad things that happen to people are labeled with that word. That's the way the concept, in OUR IMAGINATION becomes concrete. Then it becomes a part of the limits we place on our imaginations and our actions. Which brings me back, respectfully, to the question of impact on what? Yes, Loy's air punching seems impulsive to me too. A lot of other things he said/says and did/does were probably impulsive. As are many such things with each of us. But whether or not those things with him or us are abusive or not depends on... what impact our impulsive words/actions have on other people and ourselves... it seems to me.

Impact on what? Punching the air seems like he didn't necessarily have anything more specific on the subject.

I now reflect on how long it took me to start looking at my LBGTQ+ brothers and sisters as humans who God loves. It was YEARS after I exited Victor's way. And OMG! How hateful was Loy toward humans who were attracted to others who weren't the opposite gender? Whether Rosie and Donna were a couple in that way or not only matters in recognizing or at least wondering if Loy's depth of emotion on the matter of homosexuality was rooted in his inability to be still and realize that his God and his Jesus still loved him AND his wife. Can you reflect on any other area of belief or practice that you now can see as contrary to the two greatest commandments?

This takes me back to books I started reading in 2018 by author Ryan Holiday. Ego is the Enemy Stillness is the Key The Obstacle is the Way I have found that the REAL keys to Powerful and Abundant Living is in THESE books (and others I've cited in this GSC topic/thread). PFLAP and The Way International is, in my current view, the ANTITHESIS of godly living.

Here's another book relevant to Victor's PFLAP scam. How clear was he ever in defining power? Power to move mountains? Power to change the weather? Power to (make friends and) influence people? To me, it was still all quite vague. Especially since he could talk about it, but as our good friend Skyrider has pointed out with specificity, he never really demonstrated any of the "power" manifestations of the spirit. Even if he had, eventually people would have realized doing so, coupled with his gobbledygook about the "law of believing" would actually have made it more abundantly clear that he was selling witchcraft, or occult arts. So, in Susan Cain's book, Bittersweet (which rings true MUCH more than any of Victor's ramblings or rants), she cites Dacher Keltner. I now have in front of me, a Phoenix Public Library copy of Keltner's The Power Paradox: How we gain and lose influence The check out receipt happened to be put on the page with four principles related to the Abuse of Power. Do ANY of these ring true when reflecting back on either Wierwille or Martindale and/or the culture they built and we tolerated for too long? Power leads to empathy deficits and diminished moral sentiments Power leads to self-serving impulsivity Power leads to incivility and disrespect Power leads to narratives of exceptionalism I am amazed at how the scales have been removed from the eyes of my soul. I am thankful that there's MUCH more insight into and about life than just what one can read in the King James Bible (or any other version). I am NOT at all surprised that Victor wanted to keep us from reading anything but his take on the "Word of God." All we like sheep...

Also from Bittersweet:

That is TRUTH!

Some reading material you might be interested in. If God is Love, Don't be a Jerk by John Pavlovitz John came to a similar conclusion as you, but he apparently hadn't run into any Wayfers. Bittersweet: How Sorrow and Longing Can Make You Whole by Susan Cain Of course, we were conditioned to deny many of our emotions in twi. Susan Cain enlightens her readers and shows that we don't need to do so. Welcome Humanitarian!

Here's another salient book that further blows the lid off of whether Victor EVER had insight from God. Beside the fact that we were the only people who were RIGHT [all the time, about everything] and that we were in complete and total denial about our emotions... here's more of what we missed out on and that stunted our emotional and social growth and maturity. From Bittersweet: How Sorrow and Longing Make Us Whole page 6 UC Berkeley psych professor Dacher Keltner, working with Pixar director Pete Docter...

Truth! Emphatically... the bull$hit part, that is. And I bought into it hook, line, and [stinking] sinker.

I remember. And I remember the motorcycle. At ROA 75 I learned how to kill flies with my bare hands. Long time no see (here at GSC), Little Rock.

God heals or our believing? Agree with you that $$ to TWI or "other" churches doesn't do it.

So did I. I'm thankful for dictionaries. Now, THAT is down right eloquent. Btw, I did read your entire post/comment this time, T-Bone. Wow, if that doesn't hit the nail right on the head, I don't know what would. And here I thought Pavlovitz was just using a euphemism to be nice. Of course, when I first heard about his book (it actually took my local public library FOUR months after ordering it, to get it on the shelf) I thought of some less kind words that might also apply.

The topic is, "were we taught by and in TWI to be jerks?" The answer, as I see it, is yes. I learned. Then I did. Then, from mistakes, I learned what I did didn't work.

This thread isn't about psychoanalyzing me, but thanks for asking for clarification anyway.

male-dominated social orthodoxy