Rocky

And IMO, they had every right to tell their stories. I was able to visit my grandchildren yesterday. My 9 year old grandson used the expression, "next level technology." I got a kick out of it when he said that. Well, P... A.... used what was, a couple of decades ago, next level technology. A massive amount of good happened as a result of what he did with that technology. I'd be surprised if he had Bolshevik and what happened to him in mind at all when he started Waydale.

IOW, you believe you were collateral damage. If so, it seems to be a result of something outside the intentions of Waydale.

You haven't made an argument that communicates how Waydale intended to block escape routes or prevented you from building a life separate from twi.

You haven't made a case for how Waydale had anything to do with that.

I have friends w/MD degrees who don't insist on being called "doctor."

Sure, but we're using him as a case study to dissect his anti-social behavior/conduct/exploits/results.

Victor didn't teach people HOW to love God. He taught them (us) that if you think you love God, you can do as you fool please, right? Well, wasn't that just a blind man's mask for living life according to your own sinful (lustful, selfish) desires? I'm not so sure "most" people even know what Stoicism is about. But I sure don't look (anymore) on Victor's example as at all worthy of emulation.

That's one of the things I have learned from Stoic philosophy. It emphasizes four key virtues: courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. Clearly, Victor's version of Christianity was centered on himself. I bet you can find those four key virtues in the bible.

Poignant myth (story). One of Keltner's theses is that power doesn't always or doesn't have to corrupt. But it often does.

If a supposedly strong...powerful...charismatic cult-leader cannot allow him/herself to be emotionally vulnerable with people, he/she is NOT strong or powerful. Brene Brown's research has documented that reality. Thanks for sharing your insight, T!

Both of them clearly, emphatically, and repeatedly violated the four Power Principles Prof Dacher Keltner characterized as Abuse of Power. And in so doing, for both of them, it brought about their downfall. Throughout the history of online exposure of the EVILS of The Way International there have been extensive records, FIRST HAND, of abuse suffered/endured by women AND men, especially in Way Corps settings. The records are extensive and, as I said, many are first hand. They can be analyzed in exquisite detail and in doing so VPW and LCM (and lesser minions and wannabes) and instances/details of which illustrate and illuminate said empathy deficits, diminished moral sentiments, self-serving impulsivity, incivility and disrespect and most definitely narratives of exceptionalism. These descriptions were not the exception, but rather, the rule. Otherwise known as features of the system, not incidental or accidental by-products of personal flaws. Not only... But Wierwille dedicated his life to building this exceptionally dysfunctional cult. In doing so, his PRIVATE INTERPRETATION of key scriptures became such a self-justifying rationalization (i.e. lockbox and associated nonsense meant to keep his evil conduct secret) that it became part of the doctrine and/or unwritten code of conduct aka mores throughout. Wierwille lost his influence (power) by dying. Loy's power slipped away due to LIGHT SHINING on his conduct. Waydale and GSC made it so many people could rightly sing: So, I don't know that how "rapidly" they lost their power and influence, but they were most definitely their own worst enemies. Perhaps neither of them had much of a grasp on what Paul meant in 1 Corinthians 9:27, but Keltner certainly has some insight.

It certainly hastened his passing.

As if your experience and your emotional pain is the first time anyone in the history humanity has had that happen to them??????????? If you're divorced and if your divorce was not amicable and if there had been any accusations against you in a court of law regarding your relationship with your children's mother... I would think that's a much bigger deal than you getting falsely accused by townies reading waydale and harassing you with it. Just sayin'... having been through such things (in court) myself. There IS such a thing as perspective.

Bam! Righteous, brother.

Like almost all prison inmates, Jeffs is allowed visits from family members, and is permitted to send letters to approved recipients. According to A&ETV, Jeffs and his accomplices, it appears, have learned to take advantage of the freedoms they've been afforded to bend the rules. For example, since Jeffs is allowed to send and receive written letters, authorities believe he may be sending out coded messages, and his wives are deciphering them. What's more, authorities believe that Jeffs has been using his visits with his brothers to send directives on how to run what remains of his church. "We have evidence he continues to direct day-to-day operations of the church, including things like excommunicating individuals and directing what women should be placed with what caretakers," Sean Keveney, a Department of Justice attorney told the makers of "Warren Jeffs: Prophet of Evil," per A&ETV. Authorities believe that Jeffs' brothers may be using recording devices disguised as watches and pens and that Jeffs is even calling the shots at his brother Seth's FLDS compound in South Dakota's Black Hills. Read More: https://www.grunge.com/361685/the-most-shocking-true-crime-revelations-every-year-since-1999/?utm_campaign=clip

The CLAIMED they could speak in tongues.

Seriously? Used by whom? How were they used?

I didn't read on this thread where you made any such claim. Did you claim Waydale blamed innocent people? Who in any culture/society has control over how information is used once it is written or broadcast? Dude, NONE of your claims make any sense.

I remember. Of course, it was "evil." His pronouncements thereof were not based on any exegesis on the merits of the content of said document. Inclusion of the expression "New World Order" apparently flipped a switch in his mind, in his rhetoric, and in our minds to automatically and robotically dismiss the concepts altogether. Right now, I'm not discussion the political merits of or against the concept. Just that it became an issue in the mid-1970s and just like many other things, Victor ranted dismissively. Declaration of Interdependence. Much of the actual document paralleled the Declaration of Independence, but added wording about responsibility, rather than limiting it to a selfish point of view. Of course, in the ensuing 45+ years since, we HAVE learned that there ARE genuine problems/challenges that increasingly risk survival of humanity. Let's please limit discussion to historical issues and analysis of what Victor said and did. Otherwise, this may end up not being a viable discussion topic for this forum. Thanks.

I emphatically agree! An obedient mind delegates to others the responsibility for moral decision-making. That's, IMO, not at all a good thing. Me too! I don't run any more. It's a chore just to walk very much. Btw, before twi, I was just athletic enough to participate in exercises during USAF basic training and to complete the yearly 1.5 mile run (jog). In HS, I tried out for baseball (didn't make any teams) and JV wrestling. I decided I preferred drama club and choir.

So sorry you had to endure that abuse. So glad it's quite far behind you now. You (and the rest of us, thankfully) are a survivor!

1) I affirmatively do not expect you to either dance or change your belief/understanding of the issue. 2) My intent was absolutely not justifying anything. Nevertheless, beliefs are real cultural phenomena whether you believe them or not. If you're not curious, you're not curious. No doubt there are millions, if not billions of people just like you on that point.

Why would I want to explain hypocrisy in the bible? It wouldn't change either your mind or the content of the bible, right? Are you trying to get me to tell you that you are right and everyone who believe what's in the bible is wrong? That's not how I look at it. But I AM confident that you already believe you're right and everyone who believes in what's in the bible is wrong. What more is there to say about it? Believe it or not, there are people who believe there are more possibilities than that. But if you don't believe what's in the bible, why do you frame your question in terms of what you believe is in the bible? Frankly, I don't think it matters to anyone other than you or me what you believe or what I believe.

Okay, so all you really wanted to do with this thread was to rant. I suppose that's acceptable in this particular (sub) culture.