Charity

According to vp, the word takes the place of the absent Christ. I think twi uses that phrase "Christ in you" to support something Mike has often said in his posts. Since Christ is hidden or not-visible in the 5 senses, it is up to way believers to manifest Christ to the world. So again, the focus is on the individual believer to be "Christ-like" (since he's absent and all) and that gives rise to people following way leaders instead of Christ. I sent this post to Mike yesterday on the "Absent Christ" thread as a reply to an older post of his where he had written: "How many times does it say Christ is currently HIDDEN or NOT VISIBLE to the 5-senses?" My reply was along the line: "God has always been HIDDEN or NOT VISIBLE to the 5-senses yet Jesus never called him "the absent God" or even "the absent Father." He never declared to the Jews that the scrolls took the place of the absent God. How close was Jesus with God, his Father in heaven? John 17:20-23 says that's just how we are to be with God and with him."

I can see from your post how the "flowchart" you had previously shared (and I still agree with) does not convey the incredible interagency between God, the Son and the holy spirit as laid out in the epistles such as Galatians. I began reading Colossians today and I marvel at how God, Christ and the holy spirit worked together to reconcile us back to God and continue to work together to help us live out that reconciliation. For example: Col 1:9b-13 We continually ask God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives, 10 so that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, 11 being strengthened with all power [via holy spirit] according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, 12 and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. 13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Oh, forgot that twi will just use the "your spirit" theory to rationalize "exousia is the God-given right and privilege to exercise the dunamis." Again they prove deceitful in their handling of God's word by using the "bait and switch" con. They bait you by "namedroping" God (where He isn't) when they say "exousia is God-given" so you can "exercise the dunamis." THEN they switch it over in the GP to since it is your spirit, you actually control it. In other words, you (NOT GOD) give yourself the right and privilege to control the spirit because, after all, it is your spirit. Your spirit, your authority - it's all about you, you, you!

https://thewayinternational.com/operating-the-gift-of-holy-spirit/ The following paragraph is from the above article: "These four types of power all come together when we operate our gift of holy spirit. The potential power (dunamis) given to each born-again believer is exercised and put into operation by our freewill decision because we have the authority and right (exousia). God energizes (energeō) the power as we believe and decide to act, resulting in the manifestation of that power (kratos), power with an impact." A verse is given for each Greek word except exousia. Written earlier in the article is, "Next, exousia is the God-given right and privilege to exercise the dunamis." Instead of a verse, they go into the old "driving a car" example. I found this curious, so I did a quick check on Bible Hub for the Greek word, and I didn't see a verse about exousia and the believer having it to "operate the spirit." It showed the following who have/had it: Jesus (both in the gospels and in the epistles), the god of this world, the apostles but only in the context of how they conducted themselves with the church and others but only in the earthly realm. Since the statements above are used to support twi's GP, does anyone know of scriptural backup for this?

I was thinking about something today and found this old post of yours so I could share my thoughts with you. God has always been HIDDEN or NOT VISIBLE to the 5-senses yet Jesus never called him "the absent God" or even "the absent Father." He never declared to the Jews that the scrolls took the place of the absent God. How close was Jesus with God, his Father? John says that's just how we are to be with God and with him. John 17:20-23 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,that all of them may be one, Father, JUST AS you are in me and I am in you. May they ALSO be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Mike said: The main strategy in conducting an Excellors' Session was FEAR MANAGEMENT. Me: There was so much fear because the focus was on people to perform, especially when called on to "manifest" in a "believer's meeting." Instead of practicing/pretending to SIT and interpret to overcome their fear, maybe they should have been shown from day one in the Word how to have a closer relationship with Christ. Mike said: People taking the Intermediate Class, especially for the first time, would have all sorts of fears and concerns about the genuineness of their SIT, and even greater fears about getting T.I.P. genuine. Me: Genuine - as opposed to fake. Your description of an excellors' session is a 5-senses (mechanical) approach to spiritual matters which are energized by the holy spirit - NOT an excellors' leader. Mike said: Excellors' Sessions were supposed to be soothing love sessions where perfect love casts out all fear. They were supposed to be relaxing and fun, as well as horizon expanding. People needed to be able to make mistakes with T.I.P., and then see that all is easily forgiven, and then try again. Me: twi was responsible for the fear in the first place because of their doctrine - the way that fear eased (if at all) was because twi was heaping them with enough praise during these "love fests" that people felt more comfortable performing. Also Mike said: "then see that all is easily forgiven?!" - Ooops - I thought forgiveness was needed after someone sinned. Knowing that I could sin while "manifesting" sure would put the fear of God in me!!! This was a quick reply as my grandson has arrived .

On a recent reply to T-Bone, I wrote, “I still speak in tongues for people when I pray for them…I know the choice to SIT will be mine…” I read this again this morning and realized that what I said amounted to "me making a deliberate decision to 'operate the spirit' and SIT." So naturally I got a teeny tiny bit confused and then I remembered one of the websites you had mentioned to me. So I've just started to read the 1 Cor 12-14 thread for better understanding of what the hell heck is going on. So thanks again WordWolf.

And it didn't stop with just that one. More kept popping up along side. I kept clicking on them hoping they would stop...but they didn't! As the Grinch would say, "Oh, the smiles, smiles, smiles, smiles." “O wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from all those teeth?” Truly horrifying - Bravo T-Bone! It was a "snapping" good time!

AND it's Friday the 13th to boot! Oh no - please no horrifying youtube videos ...

Here I am thinking seriously about the meaning of spiritual matters in 1 Cor 14, and I see this. WAY TO GO T-BONE!!! I needed the .

Thanks T-Bone, Flowcharts are manmade that serve a purpose and I like yours . It's when vp turned the sequence of movements into not only a "principle" but a "GREAT" principle that the sequence became a burdensome dogma. (Google defines “principle” as a fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behavior or for a chain of reasoning. In vp’s case, he claimed that the GP was truth, not a proposition.) From my POV, the flowchart you shared is accurate. In my earlier post about twi’s article on how to operate holy spirit, I focused on John 16:13,15 because those were the verses twi used as the basis for their GP. The GP (GREAT problem ) with this though is that they left Jesus out when he was specifically in there . The word does say it all starts with or proceeds from the Father as you shared above. John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he (the Father) will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. John 15:26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. Gal 3:5 and 4:6 even says it was specifically God who did the sending of the spirit without the mention of Jesus Christ. However, we know from John 16:15 that “All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.” There’s no contradiction and the direction of movement is clear. The Father - -> The Son — > The Holy Spirit — > you

Hi T-Bone Just wondering why you said the "flowchart" below would not be biblically accurate? The Father - -> The Son — > The Holy Spirit — > you

Reading the posts on the "Questioning SIT" thread, I find I'm able to use critical thinking more now than in the past. I think it's because I've learned to be aware of the cult-like thinking that was drilled into me while in twi that there was only one source for all truth, which was vp, and to question his teachings meant you were deceived and full of self-pride. Being on GSC will help prepare me for when I'm in actual face-to-face conversations with people where I tend to be more hesitant to speak my mind. I still speak in tongues for people when I pray for them. I find that sometimes during the day the "words" pop up in my mind on their own and I will then continue to SIT for a bit. I'll keep listening to what others say but in the end, I know the choice to SIT will be mine - like your wife says, you do you!

Previously I replied to your post by saying, "This is both a bit funny and sad at the same time." I've since been reading the "Questioning SIT" thread and I think I have a better understanding of what you are saying. Please correct me if I'm wrong. While in twi, we might have had some initial doubts about things we learned or did (like SIT at the end of the class), but because there was so much hype to believe "all things vp", the doubts were quickly buried or they just fell by the wayside. From that point on, we believed (or pretended to believe) what was happening was real. It's like so many things talked about on GSC, it's after one leaves twi with all its hype and the rose-colored glasses are finally removed that we are free to question once again whether things were true/real for us or not - like "did I fake speaking in tongues." This is not a bit funny at all and though we might be sad, mad or hurt to realize we'd been tricked, cheated or deceived, I'm learning that truth does bring freedom.

(I might just have one, possibly two of the above .) Seriously though - no GP is taught or needed in the other programs (or classes)?

twi's GP = God, Who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit. Your spirit teaches your mind. Then your spiritual power becomes manifested in the senses realm as you act or as you speak out. That people in twi operated the spirit was demonstrated when they were "called upon" by leaders to SIT and interpret or to prophesy which we immediately did. I remember very little from the Intermediate or Advanced classes. How was it taught that we should operate the other 6 manifestations? Didn't we have to ask God or wait to receive a word of knowledge and a word of wisdom before we could use faith to do gifts of healings ,working of miracles and discerning of spirits. So why could we always do the first 3 whenever somebody asked us in a believer's meeting but not the other 6 should somebody ask (like someone on their death bed)? This doesn't make sense if it's the same GP for all 9 all the time, or maybe I'm just missing something. (This is assuming people are still called upon to manifest in a believer's meeting. Maybe they've done away with this.)

Thanks for your reply Bolshevik. I can assume, going by your posts on GSC, that going (or being sent) to New Knoxville under those conditions was anything but healing for you. It probably did isolate you more under the guise of twi keeping you under their wing.

I take everything you say about your years as a child to heart. My own son grew up in twi until we left when he was 8 years old. Your post sparked a small memory that my son did speak in tongues and might even have interpreted. I don't recall teaching him about this though. He did attend children's fellowship at the Rock of Ages for quite a few years. Maybe he saw other kids doing it there. I'll have to ask him what he remembers. Your experiences growing up in twi are so different from mine and my children's. You were quite close to everything going on while we lived in a different country where twi was very small compared to the states and we never went into the Corps. My heart goes out to you for what you went through . Thanks for sharing the above.

Thank you to everyone who shared their experiences and knowledge about SIT. You are all wonderful!

Thanks WordWolf - I had forgotten about this website. It did have what I was looking for under the Letter and Questions page. I've posted the part below. (the underlining is mine) Q. I have discovered several errors in The Way and have begun to discard some of its practices. The Way emphasizes speaking in tongues so heavily that I wonder if I should stop this, but I believe the Bible does not condemn it. What should I do? A. There is room for difference of opinion on this question, but consider this: Most Way members were committed believers before they were led astray. The Apostle Paul presents an excellent description of this in his second letter to the Corinthian church: "I hope you will put up with a little of my foolishness; but you are already doing that. I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough... Why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do! And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ" (II Corinthians 11:1-4, 11-13). Return to the practice you had before joining the Way. If speaking in tongues was beneficial, then continue it if you wish. If, however, you began speaking in tongues during Power for Abundant Living or under Way tutelage, then do not continue this practice, because The Way is promoting a "different spirit" and counterfeit manifestations, as 2 Corinthians 11 describes. One finds evangelical believers who speak in tongues and others who do not. I don't know if I agree with him or not. I do continue to SIT the same way as when I first started at the end of the pfal class. Thankfully a lot of info has been shared with me recently on this thread so I want to go through it and consider everything.

Thanks so much for showing all the threads - I really appreciate it. I have found the many different discussions on GSC to be interesting and helpful. Thanks again.

Actually this isn't the one I found earlier. That one had a recommendation for people for began to speak in tongues because of the pfal class. Does anyone know of this website?

I found it http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_stiles.htm

This is both a bit funny and sad at the same time. Thanks for sharing it. I'm looking for an article by John Juedes that I found quite a while ago about SIT at the end of the pfal class.

Thanks T-Bone for your email. I know Mike had a problem with me using footnotes, unlike the caveman above - too I guess. Your wrote above, "Reflecting on my former TWI-mindset, a lot of my concepts I adopted from wierwille’s idiosyncratic and self-centered perspective. I’ve got my own holy spirit – woo-hoo I’m a big deal ! Oh, the thrill of ownership!!!! " I find the 2 uses of the words "your spirit" in twi's GP bothersome. It seems supported by vp's teaching on body, soul and spirit. Before being born again, man is body and soul only. After being born again, man is now body, soul and spirit. So, since the spirit is now in my body, it has become my spirit. It makes the spirit so miniscule this way when compared to it being God's spirit in me.