Charity

Prayer is more than just asking God for your needs to be met – I understand that. And I understand how leaving Christianity because one’s prayers for deliverance did not get answered can be seen as acting like a spoiled brat. Yet, if God does not do what he promises to do, then the issue becomes one of trust. Is there really a God as laid out in the Bible? Many will proclaim that their prayers were answered which is wonderful but what about the others who say their prayers were not. Why the difference if God is not a respecter of persons? All the verses below (except for one) are promises with conditions attached which are not always specific leaving the door open for loopholes and turning “shalls” into “maybes.” On the other hand, the “shalls” can mean a definite “yes” but only according to God’s hidden timetable which means we wait (and we wait and we wait). However, “shall” never means "shall not," so there is a guarantee in them. (Concerning “trust” as a condition, the law of believing was a nightmarish doctrine of vpw. So is “trust” as used in some verses below any better?) Finally, unanswered prayers for deliverance seems to always come down to two reasons: the person praying did not meet the conditions or that the deliverance will come but after Christ returns. The former leaves a Christian working to please God, and the latter only matters if there really is going to be a return of Christ. In other words, there is no proof until it actually happens. So this is where my thinking is at now and here are the verses. Unconditional promise: Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8For every one that asks receives; and he that seeks finds; and to him that knocks it shall be opened. (Verse 11 relates this promise to receiving “good things” from God. Luke 11:13 narrows it down to receiving “the Holy Spirit.” Which is it or is it both?) 1 John 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. (The context is loving “in deed and in truth.” Is this an "all or nothing" condition?) 1 John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he hears us: 15And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him. (Does this mean we are to always know God’s will or are we to attached “not my will but yours be done” at the end of our petitions?) James 5:16 Confess your faults rs to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. 17Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain… (What does “effectual fervent” mean? Do we have to be an Elijah to get answer to prayer? Does “righteous” mean one who does right or one who is righteous in Christ?) Ephesians 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us (If this is referring to the spirit realm, how many different doctrines are there about how “this power works in us.” Is there an accurate one that proves to work every time?) John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believes on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. (The condition is trusting – having any uncertainty is not trusting.) Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance (assurance) of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (With both verses in Hebrews, the condition is trusting – having any uncertainty is not trusting.)

Thanks for sharing the above. The quotes and your words of "Gracefully. With compassion" did not describe my life while helping to take care of my grandson and other issues that resulted because of his needs. I was regularly hurt, confused and judging myself as to why things were getting worse and harder for us to deal with at the same time I was praying for God's help. This was like receiving a double whammy. When I look at the verses on prayers or receiving God's promises, they are a mixed lot. Some have no conditions attached but most do have conditions attached. (I'll probably share more about this later.) Without the agony of wondering what more I have to do for God to answer the least of my prayers, I now can deal with reality in a simpler and calmer way. I still hurt for my grandson but my mind is clearer now and I can problem solve better now.

After leaving twi, it was necessary to unlearn the lies we were taught in order to become healthier. I think it is true for leaving Christianity as well - it happens when one sees the problems with what the Bible teaches. Is it only a matter of how one looks at things? The following is from the beginning of the video above about the slave mentality of Christianity. It shows a different way of seeing God than what I’ve believed for so long. INDIVIDUAL ASPECT - Fear of Death: God offers a bargain system, not a free gift but a trade in order to save us from eternal death (or hell) which He decided was the apt penalty for all of us because of Adam's sin. Our end of the bargain is to make Jesus Christ our lord and master. PSYCHOLOGICAL ASPECT (6:15 in the video) - 5 LINEAR CHARACTERISTICS OF SLAVE MENTALITY (lowering oneself to bring about the desires/needs of someone greater at a great expense to oneself) i. Obedience: based on being told the Master/God knows what is right; disobedience = personal harm ii. Submissiveness: lowering oneself; believing we're worthless - we who are “wretched” according to our Master/God are “saved” so we can glorify how great our Master/God is iii. Dependence: relying on our Master's/God's authority to supply our personal needs, validation, direction or sustenance which reinforces our worthlessness, wretchedness and incompetence to live our lives without Him iv. Fatalism: The Master's/God’s way is the only way; any other way is bad, therefore we resign ourselves to submission and dependence on the Master/God v. Fear of autonomy: fear of freedom, personal responsibility or unknown outcomes (e.g., Israelites wanting to return to slavery in Egypt rather than face the reality of their hardships in the wilderness) A A believing Christian will obviously not see things this way, but for one who is beginning to doubt the truth of the Bible, the above becomes eye-opening.

Hi Cman, I like many others, had to deconstruct from the wrong doctrine of twi after being involved for 11 years. Now, I'm wondering which of the following is not what we as Christians are to believe. In the Old Testament, the goodness of God towards His own people was mostly based on obedience to Him; otherwise, you see them suffer curses, deaths, killings, punishments, etc. With the gospels, you have Jesus coming again to his own people and saying "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple." Then, in order to save mankind from sin, God needed him to be tortured and crucified for three hours because that was how God set everything up from the beginning. The Epistles say we are saved by grace which is groovy for us considering what God did to his people under the law in the OT but not so groovy for those who may be saved during the great tribulation which God will allow to happen. Then, there's the power which we have access to during this period but only if we trust in God and even then, it seems to come down to His prerogative whether it's manifested. Finally, there is the rapture which while again groovy for us, is not so for those left behind since they shall see "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

The first thing mentioned in the "Is Christianity a Slave Mentality" video above is the fear of death. Like he shares, this is one of the last string that keeps me wanting to hang on to Christianity - is this life all we have (which Paul says we are then to be most pitied),or is there truly a promise of eternal life as explained in the Bible (especially one where my grandson will be given a healthy mind and body)? But if there is no God, then there is no promised afterlife as we have come to expect it. And if that's true, then a huge mind shift is required to see how living with this reality means we are to live our lives to the fullest while we can (within the requirements of human laws and with a care for helping our fellow man if one wishes). If based on the accepted belief that there is no God, then does valuing even more the one life we have now all that awful? And what about the pain and suffering that does happen in this one life - how are we to see it when there is no relief to look forward to in heaven? I can see why God's promises are so important but only if one trusts the words of the Bible.

Over the past six months, I have struggled quite a bit with my relationship with God for two reasons: seeing the suffering of my 8-year-old grandson with non-verbal autism beginning to have seizures again (as well as other health issues), and the doctrine of the rapture and the great tribulation. As part of this second issue, I have seen a dear brother in Christ become very focused on warning others of the terrible wrath of God that will soon be upon those who are left behind. I won't get into specifics about these two issues right now, but instead of what I've learned in the last week or so. I began watching videos on the MindShift website. They are done by a man named Brandon who was raised up in a fundamentalist religion and was very active in it for decades as an adult. He no longer believes there is a God and therefore believes that the Bible was written by men alone. He uses a lot of the Bible to show how the Christian god is not a good god. He also talks about how Christians defend these verses to show the opposite - that God is a long-suffering and merciful God. I have found that what he says makes sense. I am attaching one of his videos about how living a life as a slave to Christ is very similar to what real slaves to real masters here on earth had to suffer and endure. I would really appreciate hearing what you think about this. He covers a lot in 40 minutes so it's not necessary to listen to the whole video to bring up topics for discussion. Thanks!

So God rested sat on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. Did vp explain why God would need (or want) to even sit? I understood the 7th day of creation was a model of what God would later command the Israelites to do no work on the Sabbath so they would solely focus on all God had done for them. Another reason was the Sabbath pointed towards the Messiah's completed work of redemption at which time man would cease needing to keep the law to be right before God. So why would this "revered man of God" say God simply sat? What was the spiritual significance of God sitting? I don't get it.

I'm not American but there seems to be a lot of higher up "Christian" ministers who have publicly spoke of their preferred candidate and based it on scripture. I wonder how they get away with it.

I listened to the whole video and have different thoughts on it. He does a very good job with scripture to teach how God delights in all people and I think if this was all one needed to know and believe, one could feel safe and secure in God. But then there are the many teachings about people needing to be saved before the rapture (which supposedly will happen soon because of the upcoming solar eclipse) or needing to either survive the tribulation or be martyred in ordered to be saved. There are also the times when you pray for someone who is suffering and who only gets worse while you're trusting God to help them. In other words, there are reasons to stop believing in this God who does not come across as so loving after all. I'm wondering what your purpose was for your post and sharing the video.

What I've witnessed about you OldSkool has been your commitment to both God and Christ and how your faithful obedience to them as they led you through your healing and restoration of your life and even beyond that has been real. God is faithful to His Word: Ephesians 1:17-23 17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. Continue to be the servant you have wanted to be since the age of 23. Love in Christ, Charity

Sorry, I saw the name Bethel and immediately thought of the charismatic church that I've been reading about when following the IHOPKC meltdown. I realize now that it's about JW and that you've been following it for a while now.

Do you know much about Bethel?

Thanks Chockfull!

Sorry Twinky, just looked at this yesterday. I thought it was too long .

https://www.google.com/search?q=when+is+the+line+i+really+want+world+peace+in+miss+congeniality&client=firefox-b-d&sca_esv=d85953eb7f2d9eac&ei=sq66Zf6rEMSW5OMPquKogAc&ved=0ahUKEwj-zJ7hvIiEAxVEC3kGHSoxCnAQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=when+is+the+line+i+really+want+world+peace+in+miss+congeniality&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiP3doZW4gaXMgdGhlIGxpbmUgaSByZWFsbHkgd2FudCB3b3JsZCBwZWFjZSBpbiBtaXNzIGNvbmdlbmlhbGl0eTIFECEYoAEyBBAhGBVIi3dQmghYnHVwAXgBkAEAmAGJAaABwCGqAQQ0Mi43uAEDyAEA-AEBwgIKEAAYRxjWBBiwA8ICERAuGIAEGIoFGJECGLEDGIMBwgIKEAAYgAQYigUYQ8ICCxAAGIAEGIoFGJECwgITEC4YgAQYigUYQxixAxjHARjRA8ICCxAAGIAEGLEDGIMBwgIFEAAYgATCAg4QLhiABBixAxjHARjRA8ICERAuGIAEGLEDGIMBGMcBGNEDwgIgEC4YgAQYigUYkQIYsQMYgwEYlwUY3AQY3gQY4ATYAQHCAhAQABiABBiKBRhDGLEDGIMBwgIIEAAYgAQYsQPCAgsQLhiABBixAxiDAcICCxAuGIAEGIoFGJECwgIOEAAYgAQYigUYsQMYgwHCAiMQLhiABBiKBRiRAhiXBRjcBBjeBBjgBBj0AxjxAxj1A9gBAcICDhAAGIAEGIoFGJECGMkDwgILEAAYgAQYigUYkgPCAgcQABiABBgKwgIGEAAYFhgewgIIEAAYFhgeGA_CAggQABgWGB4YCsICCxAAGIAEGIoFGIYDwgIHECEYChigAeIDBBgAIEGIBgGQBgi6BgYIARABGBQ&sclient=gws-wiz-serp#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:6ae090a1,vid:B1ZOWwW2agQ,st:0

Hi Annio, I've spent some time in the local Vineyard church here and there were some positive things I experienced, but it is definitely a charismatic church. Looking back on that time, one concern I have is their emphasis on inviting the holy spirit to come, especially during the worship service. This belief goes against the doctrine that we have holy spirit permanently dwelling within which is our connection with God and Christ. On the surface, it may not seem like a big difference but many Vineyard people put faith in "experiencing" the holy spirit like "holy laughter" or feeling warmth in their hands as evidence "he" has come to them. In 1994, there was the Toronto Blessing at a Vineyard church which brought thousands of people from around the world to experience the blessing and bring it back to their churches. John Wimber approved of it up to a certain point, until the "manifestations" of making animal sounds became too insane. However, what was happening at the beginning, Wimber believed was of God. In the church here, their view of the trinity had developed to where Jesus has now become the father and the holy spirit. Before, they were separate but all part of one God in essence. Now, when they read scriptures that are specifically about God the Father, they interpret it as being Jesus. It was so blasphemous that I left the church. One last thing, the pastor at my church fully believes in the teachings of Mike Bickle of the International House of Prayer Kansas City whose "prophetic history" includes riding in a chariot in heaven and encounters with Jesus and Michael the archangel. They are in a crisis right now due to allegations of sexual misconduct by Bickle so at lot of their false doctrine is being revealed. If the Vineyard you attend accepts Bickle's teachings, especially his book called "Growing in the Prophetic," then it is definitely something you need to research for yourself.

Your experience sounds pretty intense Rusty. I'm thankful you received such care and you are able now to share your story.

I mentioned in my post that I didn't know what the criminal code was in the US. I also took for granted that posters knew I was from Canada. Thanks for clarifying this at the beginning of your post. The terms are specific like you say: abuse, conduct, assault, misconduct and exploitation. The fact that IHOPKC's spokesperson used the words "inappropriate behavior" and "sexual immorality" shows they want to stay away from legal definitions to safeguard themselves. The Advocate Group who represents the victims and includes a lawyer used "clergy sexual abuse" in both of their public statements.

I just looked it up - didn't know this before. I don't know what it is in the US. "Changes to the Criminal Code In 1983, changes were made to the Criminal Code. There was no longer a listed offence of rape. The new crime of sexual assault was made. The changes to the laws of rape came as a result of how infrequently victims of rape would come forward to report what had been done to them. Many deep-rooted beliefs made women who were the victims of rape felt ashamed of their experiences. The laws were changed so that women who had been raped would be encouraged to come forward with their stories. The laws were also changed so as to shift the focus toward the violent nature of rape and away from the sexual aspects of it. There was also a widespread belief in there being a connection between someone not being a virgin and their believability as a witness. The laws were changed to address that as well. Sexual Assault (SA) The changes resulted in three new criminal offences. These were sexual assault (section 271 of the Criminal Code) sexual assault with a weapon, threats to a third party, or causing bodily harm (section 272 of the Criminal Code), and aggravated sexual assault (section 273 of the Criminal Code). The most basic of these is sexual assault"

One last thing about all the recent coverage on Mike Bickle. Bickle was heavily criticized by church leaders outside IHOPKC and many others for the "confession" letter he sent out. The letter is shown at the bottom of this report. https://julieroys.com/breaking-international-house-of-prayer-founder-mike-bickle-confesses-to-inappropriate-behavior-20-years-ago/ One of the points they make is that forgiveness is dependent upon the wrongdoer making an honest and full confession to the one they harmed. In Bickle's case, as founder of an international church, they believe the confession needs to be made to the members of the church as well. I am not talking about the healing properties of forgiveness. I'm only sharing how their position does not support those who say forgiveness is mandatory for Christians whether an admission or apology is ever given by the wrongdoer.

In the main Jane Doe's interview with The Roys Report, she said one of the reasons she came forward is because she recently became aware of how Bill Cosby had drugged his victim(s). She then realized that Bickle must have done that to her as well. Before this, she could not understand why one night she woke up alone in a hotel room and could not remember how she got there. This occurred after having dinner with Bickle in a restaurant and having a couple of drinks. Apparently, there were other occasions like this. It seems Bickle and VP have a lot in common. Thankfully, the Advocate Group (AG) which includes the two named above, are looking out for the Jane Doe's who come forward. Both Bickle and IHOPKC were criticizing them for not doing Matthew 18:15-17 which requires them to first meet with Bickle privately to confront him. Without doing so, according to them, they cannot move forward to investigate their claims. That's part of the system where abusers can get away with their abuses. As the AG has made known, a victim of abuse, especially by a person who has had spiritual authority over them, should never be expected to be alone with that person again for any reason or at any time. This statement also offsets how on a number of occasions, the top leaders have told any further victims to contact them or the investigator heading the "independent" investigation. Finally, it is the AG that is making it known that all 3 law firms IHOPKC has hired to do the investigation have not been independent which is why the Jane Doe's will not consent to being interviewed by them. These women have been labelled false accusers on social media because of their refusal to cooperate with these law firms.

Oh, if that would only be the case. As you probably know by now, IHOPKC has formally and permanently separated themselves from Bickle "due to a level of confirmed 'inappropriate behavior.'” There have been quite a few offshoots of IHOPKC in the past few years and like with twi, they basically continue to teach the same false doctrine as its founder - Mike Bickle. I'm sure more will continue to spring up now. So much of what is going on with these groups is based on the fast-growing Charismatic movement which is extremely heavy on members receiving and sharing their "personal prophecies, dreams and visions" from God. Apparently, it has become the "norm" for people to visit heaven and see Jesus to receive a prophecy (which outdoes vp's snow story anytime). IHOPKC itself was built on personal prophecies Bickle received from other "prophets" as well as his own false prophecies, dreams and visions (which are so insane if you care to google about them). This charismatic movement, of which the Vineyard Church was influential in propagating in the early 80's, believe that scripture alone is not enough. In their desire to "feel and experience" spiritual giftings, get extra knowledge from God (Gnosticism) and become "intimate with Jesus" (bridal paradigm), they are falling for "prophetic words" that obviously come either from people's own imaginations or from spiritual sources other than God. The kicker is that this movement (including Bickle) publicly say the majority of prophecies are false or wrongly interpreted (80%) which is okay because it's the 20% that are "correct" that is important. Exposing Mike Bickle, however, is bringing more awareness to all of this craziness and hopefully will slow down the growth in the charismatic movement. Unfortunately, like twi, those involved in IHOPKC have been warned to stay off social media.

I have come close to becoming obsessed with following this guy and IHOPKC - there is soooo much wrong with Bickle's history, his 24/7 prayer room, his teachings and his influence in the religious communities worldwide. What's coming out now about him is nothing new among big time leaders who have been exposed in the past, but it's how it's currently being played out by Bickle and the leaders of IHOP that shows the spiritual manipulation and deception that always go along with this stuff. Anyway, the best coverage I have found on everything that is happening is on youtube by a young couple. Their podcasts go by the name of Wake up and Win. This is one I listened to today by just the husband who used to be in IHOP and he's talking to the people still in the group that might be thinking about leaving. It's very good.

Only once did I wonder if a post of mine had been deleted (can't remember now what it was about), but I found it disappeared along with some others when GSC downloaded that new program. About the video, you know how twi whitewashed the truth about vp (and is still doing it); you can expect the same to be going on here. Bickle has agreed to the church's terms to stop all ministering in person and on social media but he has many devoted followers in leadership. This is the man who led that church into an extreme teaching of the song of Solomon being about the bride of Christ and Jesus. All romantic and sexual phrases and verses were how their followers began to relate to Jesus in their words, prayers and songs written by them. His end times teachings are horrendous as well. I came to learn about this guy through the Vineyard church I was attending. Anyway, I don't believe the truth about the sexual misconduct will ever come to light if the investigation is not a totally independent one. So thanks again to anyone who takes a few minutes to add their name to the petition!

A while ago, I shared some things about the International House of Prayer Kansas City (IHOPKC) and its founder Mike Bickle. I learned a couple of days ago that he is being investigated by the church for allegations of sexual misconduct “where the marriage covenant was not honored." You can read more about it on this website: https://www.christianpost.com/news/mike-bickle-accused-of-sexual-misconduct-by-multiple-women.html I have kept in touch with Susan Tuma who is a leader of a chat room like GSC where those who have left IHOP can go to discuss issues and get some healing. She knows Bickle well and has shared with me that the accusations are true and that they are much worse than I can imagine. Unlike vp and twi, this guy and his church is hugely significant within the Charismatic movement internationally. He holds a lot of power, but I've been told that he is very manipulative and likely a pathological narcissist. Susan also shared about IHOP leadership hiring a law firm/lawyer that is personal friends with Dave Sliker on their executive leadership team. She shares the leadership there is deeply untrustworthy and that is why she helped to write a petition demanding they hire an appropriate investigative team. I signed her petition yesterday and am passing it along here if any of you want to sign it as well. https://chng.it/4XgwMrvxHw P.S. Hopefully this post won't get deleted by the moderators.