WordWolf

First of all, this should be in DOCTRINAL, because this is about DOCTRINE, and is clearly not "ABOUT THE WAY." So, I'll ask the mods to move this thread. As for Spong himself, I'd have more respect if he just came right out and said he wasn't a Christian- or even a THEIST, as he denies anything that gives either term meaning. So, he denies the fall of man, Theism, miracles in the Bible, the sacrificial substitution of The Cross, Jesus' resurrection AND ascension, the Bible as any type of authoritative book, and the efficacy of prayer. I had more in common with Christianity when I was young and stupid, and rejected all of Christianity and the Bible. I still believed there WAS one God, but didn't think I knew anything about Him other than that He was The Creator. I was still, technically, a theist. In other news, Spong's been unconscionably sloppy in his theology in all sorts of subjects. In a quick search of his name, I found someone providing evidence against a different flat claim of his- that the Biblical account of Jesus' burial was historically unlikely. http://www.shroudsto...g-on-burial.htm "The probable fate of the crucified Jesus was to be thrown with other victims into a common, unmarked grave. The general consensus of New Testament scholars is that whatever the Easter experience was, it dawned first in the minds of the disciples who had fled to Galilee for safety, driving us to the conclusion that the burial story in the gospels is … legendary … " Reply: "...unquestionably, by the pattern of your argument, you want us to accept that the consensus of New Testament scholars think that Jesus was not buried in a tomb. That is certainly not true and you know it, Bishop John Shelby Spong." (Several quotes follow, refuting Spong's claims- including quotes from Jesus Seminar writers who otherwise would agree with Spong that the Bible is outdated and archaic.) This whole article comes from the position that intelligent, educated people can't possibly be fundamentalist Christians of ANY type- despite quite a number being just that, including rocket scientists and notables like Sir Isaac Newton. It ASSUMES that the 2 can't be reconciled, and derides anyone who has attempted to reconcile them and succeeded. That's the kind of thinking that STIFLES scientific innovation- the notion that answers might NOT be somewhere just out of my immediate reach, and someone else might find them today, or I might find them tomorrow, and we might all need to re-evaluate our thinking next month because of what we learn today. By ASSUMING one has arrived at the ONE answer, one stops the search for deeper knowledge. The writer may accuse the Christians of being close-minded, but he's exposing his own bigotry and narrow-mindedness in the process.

Substituting the passive tense with an active tense is what it is, and in this SPECIFIC case, it means turning PERMISSION into INITIATION. The average person who understands the figure would never recognize it as "idiom of permission."

{b]I'd like to have a discussion on the actual topic. You know, the one where we discuss what the Bible says and what the Bible means. Quite a few DIVERSE groups who actually care about the Bible render "fear of God" as a concept COMPLETELY UNRELATED to the modern meaning of "fear". We could discuss that, or we could discuss why some Bibles use words like "respect" when translating "phobos"- and that's not the work of ex-twi'ers. However, it seems this thread just can't progress without one of the posters being determined to keep introducing and RE-introducing vpw into the discussion, and refuting the claims that everyone already agrees are refuted. Is this because the poster is trying to fog the issue by misrepresenting the others? I strongly doubt it. Is the poster unable to approach this subject without it revolving around vpw? I'm seeing sufficient evidence to believe it's that rather than something else. Can someone signal me when (if) this thread can depart from revolving around vpw for at least 2 pages straight?[/b]

======================== "Let's make sure that history never forgets the name...Enterprise." "Federation ship Enterprise, surrender and prepare to be boarded." "That will be the day." "Mr Castillo?" "Yes, Captain?" "Inform the crew - we're going back!" "A warrior's drink!" "Military log, combat date 43625.2."

I DID, but it probably would have taken MANY quotes to hit one that would have intersected what little I know about the episode- draining phasers for power for a shuttle.

Hook Robin Williams Hamlet (Branagh version) (There's quite a cast to choose from in that version.}

You'll guess correctly. You're up!

My ability to name TOS episodes is not impressive. I currently don't know much about this episode, and what I DO know wasn't in a quote. ======================== Ok, next round. "Let's make sure that history never forgets the name...Enterprise."

"It has been established that persons who have recently died have been returning to life and committing acts of murder. A widespread investigation of funeral homes, morgues, and hospitals has concluded that the unburied dead have been returning to life and seeking human victims. It's hard for us here to be reporting this to you, but it does seem to be a fact."

My usual rule of thumb (not an official rule of the thread AFAIK) is that the quote may be recognized by someone who never saw the movie. I'm fairly sure I could have gotten this from "laces out" if I was in the right frame of mind, but even the longer quote wouldn't have gotten me to "ACE VENTURA PET DETECTIVE" if I'd never seen it.

White Men Can't Jump Wesley Snipes Demolition Man

In his book, "vp and me", lcm said he went to University of Kansas, which is geographically dead-center in the continental US. He described himself as looking for answers, for being essentially uncommitted when in college- not a "rising star" of any denomination.... which is more honest because his skills as a Christian were sorely deficient when he met vpw and he had NO leadership experience which is why he bumbled and bungled his way through twi, surviving because vpw valued blind loyalty and lickspittles more than results. I've seen a rising star in a denomination, in college (while HE was in college), and he is nothing like the young lcm, who made his reputation as a dumb jock and never rose above DUMB jock.

I know that some among you are going to try to just rationalize away what's been said. So, I'll lay some things out for you, and you can see them for yourself. A) According to twi's own books, Mrs W said that vpw never EVER mentioned the supposed 1942 Promise (when he supposedly learned from God) from 1942 to the early 1970s. Is there any married Christian ANYWHERE who would hear a major message from God and conceal it from his or her spouse for DECADES, then reveal it first to other people? Come on, if he REALLY heard from God, he'd have to tell SOMEONE, and his spouse would hear as soon as was possible (as in "next time they spoke".) B) vpw's accounts of this vary. According to "The Way:Living in Love", this was the most important day of his entire life, and the supposed snow he saw made everything WHITE. According to "Born Again to Serve", the supposed snow he saw made the sky BLACK because it was so thick. Did the snow switch from white to black, or did he forget what happened the most important day of his life, or did he lie and improve the lie as he went along? C) Supposedly, vpw claims that God spoke to vpw, and God promised vpw that He (God) would teach His Word to him (vpw) as it had not been known since the first century, if he (vpw) would teach it to others. This can't possibly be a message the REAL God gave someone. It would have to either be a LIE, or be a message from the devil, who lied when he gave it. Why? First of all, nothing vpw taught to others was UNKNOWN SINCE THE FIRST CENTURY. It can ALL be traced to OTHER CHRISTIANS, which means it had been known by them and by their students before vpw claimed he heard from God Almighty. So, this promise FAILS. Second of all, how was God's Word known in the first century? Well, a layman or someone with inadequate education (like a major in Homiletics rather than Church History or something related) could think this was a valid thing to compare to vpw's teachings. They are completely unrelated. The 1st century Christians DID NOT HAVE THE COMPLETE BIBLE. The New Testament was still circulating while it was copied by hand, one at a time, around the known world. vpw teaches the Church Epistles, which were not widely disseminated until the 2nd century AD. The 1st century Christians DID NOT STUDY- which is the mainstay of vpw's Christianity and how to excel thereby. The 1st century Christians knew God BY EXPERIENCE, and in the face of their persecution. Their teachings were often very practical, and in power, not study. The 1st century Christians were DE-CENTRALIZED. vpw did his best to consolidate all decisions into his own hands. Either vpw heard a promise from a God who makes mistakes, or vpw heard a promise from a God who lies, or vpw lied and he never heard from God. Take your pick- but based on other proven lies, I think the last one is the only real possibility. If vow heard from the devil and can't tell the difference, vpw is not ready to try to teach others- he needs to learn the fundamentals himself. If vpw heard from a God that makes mistakes, I don't want to learn about such a "God". And one last thing: If you think it's better to call God a liar or incompetent rather than say a man is- even if that man is vpw- then you really need to re-examine your beliefs and structure.

pg-199 & 200. quote: "The next morning, I still hadn't left town. I went to breakfast at the hotel, sat down next to a straight guy. He looked me over and recognized me. He began, 'Aren't you the Evangelical and Reformed preacher who spoke in tongues last night?' I said, 'Yes, but it was a damn lie.' Then he said he knew I was dam*ed because I cussed. That ended our conversation. Then a woman came over to me, and said, 'I think God sent a man here to meet your need. Meet me at 9am.' I thought, 'Women never tell the truth.' But then I reconsidered, since I was stuck in town anyway. So I decided to meet her. I got to the place she said at 9am, and there she was. She introduced me to a man named J.E. Stiles. He'd com in from the West Coast. A few days before, God had told him to go to Tulsa to minister the holy spirit to one man. We talked for a few minutes, and he suggested we gointo the rally to hear Oral Roberts and then meet for lunch. So that's what we did. At lunchtime Stiles came in with his wife and the pianist. I just remember thinking to myself, 'There aren't going to be any women around when I get the holy spirit.' I was just watching and waiting. Lunch was kind of light talk- we talked about Oral Roberts, the Holy Spirit, lots of stuff. When we were done, I picked up the check, and then Stiles turned to his wife and said, 'Honey, I'm going with VP.' She said something to him like, 'How long will you be?' And he said, 'That's none of your business.' That was it, and my opinion of him as a man went up 99 percent. His stature increased in my eyes. just from the way he handled her."

vpw's lifelong specialty was "the gift of gab." He considered a number of careers, and settled on the one that allowed him to get by most with clever speeches. Despite that, he admitted he was ready to quit on ministry a few times in the first year or so. That might be because his entire commitment was based on something OTHER than believing the Bible. He supplemented his "sizzle" by adding "steak"- the work of Leonard, Stiles and Bullinger (and others.) He claimed it was all his own work, and that the reason we'd heard better from him than elsewhere was that elsewhere, it was IMPOSSIBLE and that only HE really cared about the Bible and what God wanted and had NO agenda, and that he and only he had a special connection with God unique for about 2000 years. We believed some or all of it partly because we didn't imagine someone would lie so blatantly, especially representing God. We didn't consider legitimate Bible teaching might have been REGURGITATED from other sources (Stiles, Bullinger, Leonard, Larkin, Kenyon, etc) and presented by a liar/cheat/conman/Lord Over God's Heritage. We've shown all of that was one lie after another, and yet there's STILL people who go around making those very claims. They're AFRAID to grow up spiritually. They're AFRAID to see UNPLEASANT truths. They care more about "a good feeling" (like you can get on any therapist's couch, according to vpw) than about Truth.

*checks "the way:Living in Wonderland* Winter of 1951. I wonder when I started confusing that. Makes a lot more sense. Having him meet Stiles and Leonard in the same year never seemed quite right to me. He had the book, then began teaching Leonard's class, then had Stiles' book retyped and printed in-house to supplement Leonard's class. Now the order makes sense. ========== Thanks for the kudos. We all add to the whole as suits our talents. I rely on people like Oakspear to provide additional analysis when I text-dump, catching details I missed when I was typing.

[vpw put forth that all other Christians were either corrupt, incompetent, or both. He made many claims-all unproven-to "support" this. He called respectable seminaries "cemeteries" and muddled in secular colleges (where "Religion" is treated much like Cultural Anthropology) with respectable colleges where Christian beliefs are expected. In the former, reading AROUND the Bible is standard, in the latter, reading the Bible is required. Since, at most, we'd all encountered Religion classes in a SECULAR university, this was very clever-it suggested to us that ALL education, including Christian education- was anti-Bible. He denigrated the study of OTHERS who'd put years or decades of their lives into studying the Bible, God, church history, church languages, etc, while putting forth that standard practice at twi was to call vpw "Doctor"- which is something respectable PhDs generally do NOT do- and the exceptions tend to be insufferable windbags whose need to hear their titles proudly displays their INSECURITIES for all to see. Furthermore, he didn't even GET a proper, accredited PhD, he got one from an unaccredited institution. He knew the difference- he got his Masters at a respectable place, then went on to get his PhD at a flaky little place with lower standards. (Too much work to EARN a proper PhD?) vpw claimed he parted with his previous denomination over THEIR corruption. Instead, he timed his departure VERY specifically- he had acquired a LOCATION (the farm was deeded to the non-profit, allowing him to use it tax-free), a PRODUCT (Leonard's classes with Stiles' book as the textbook) and was acquiring his own church people before he left his denomination. He was perfectly happy to take their regular paycheck for years while he set up his new organization on the side. That was about 1957, which gave him a few years to work with the land, and polish his presentation of Leonard and Stiles' material while finding Bullinger's work to add to Stiles. The real critical year for vpw was 1953. That was the year he encountered Stiles. Rather than learn from Stiles about The Spirit and serving God, all vpw heard was "here's a textbook nobody's ever heard of, on a subject people want to learn"- and he had it retyped with his own name on it. That was also the year he encountered Leonard. Rather than learn from Leonard about The Spirit and serving God, all vpw heard was "here's a class nobody's ever heard of, on a subject people want to learn"- and he taught it as his own with his name on it. We know the first version was EXACTLY the same because anyone who'd taken Leonard's class was considered-by vpw- to be a grad of HIS class- "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today" (with matching book retyped from Stiles.) Later editions of both included the work of others like Bullinger, and transcripts from the class were typed up to make up the other textbook, the Orange Book. What about 1942? Well, in the early 1970s, vpw BEGAN claiming that in 1942, he heard from God, and God spoke to him with a poorly-worded promise that God should have known better than to say, and confirmed it with a miraculous snowstorm nobody else witnessed, whose details CHANGED depending on when vpw told it (when it happened, what color the snow was...) ] The first one wasn't even told to his WIFE until over 20 years later. When it was first told to others-according to Mrs W- it was in the early 70s to the early Corps. This just happens to be the first people he could invent a story to who would actually take it seriously. Even if some critical details changed when he retold it. The second one was actually checked and didn't happen. When a believer in vpw told him this, he didn't even SUGGEST they might have been mistaken (like any of us if we experienced a blizzard that stopped us in a city) but IMMEDIATELY agreed it didn't happen and suggested angels had gone around and lied to him to make him THINK there was a blizzard. So vpw didn't even STICK to that story when someone pointed out the evidence was that it never happened. [vpw traveled and used the credentials of his organization, and relied on Pillai and Williams to open the doors to him all over "his" tour. vpw reported this as if he was some sort of CELEBRITY with the "doors to the Far East" open to him and being the FIRST Christian to speak before the Jain Convention (which he may never have actually ADDRESSED, only VISITED while Williams addressed it, but who would check his claims half a world away?] [pfal was almost entirely a compilation of work from Leonard, Stiles, Bullinger and a few others (Clarence Larkin.) The few times ANY of them were mentioned (usually Bullinger) it was in a way to make it sound like he came to those conclusions INDEPENDENTLY of Bullinger and others.] [True-and he came back with "adult" materials he used to teach a class on sex to twi'ers. Amazingly, many people now still don't find anything suspicious about that class despite its content, what it does NOT cover, and who was teaching it. We don't have access to the records, but a source I'm unable to name was specific that they did some digging (while IN twi) and found out the denomination disapproved of vpw being a sex maniac and causing some issues with a church secretary. By now, this should surprise no one.]

Ok, let's review. vpw originally went to school and eventually narrowed his possible career choices down to 3: business, music, ministry, eventually selecting ministry. (By his own admission, he did not believe the Bible was The Word of God at the time.) He went to college, and then to Princeton Theological Seminary for his Masters. (That's a respectable seminary that has no connection to Princeton University other than location in Princeton NJ- but to hear lcm say it in public, vpw went to Princeton-with the implication it was the University and not the Seminary.) vpw's area of study was never what he later set himself forth as an authority on- it was HOMILETICS, or PREACHING. He did not focus on Bible languages, history, or any other subject which requires real study time- despite his later claims of making his life about Bible study. His major was "writing sermons and preaching them." He completed his education at an unaccredited organization- Pike's Peak Seminary, which was a LOT easier than trying to graduate with a PhD from, say, Princeton Theological Seminary. He then began preaching- still while not believing the Bible was The Word of God, according to vpw. His claims to being a "remarkable" student begin and end with him playing on the basketball team in high school, and vague comments meant to be interpreted that he was on the college team and playing for the Sheboygan Redskins professional team (he neither was on his college's varsity team nor a member of the Sheboygan Redskins.) He was never-ACADEMICALLY- a noteworthy student. Why is this relevant now? Very simple. vpw made claims about "leadership programs" like the WOW program and the Corps. However, vpw was COMPLETELY UNQUALIFIED to run such a program, let alone set one up. Look at both programs- they are grossly inadequate and very vague. Supervising of them was sporadic and arbitrary, and no CLEAR, CONSISTENT guidelines were ever presented for candidates to either- nor was there even a "vetting" program for either. vpw had never PARTICIPATED in any leadership training program, and had no military training either- not even ROTC. So, what did he base the programs on? His vague notions about such things from popular movies. He claimed to base the Corps on the military at one point- but had no idea how things were there at all. He also claimed the WOW program was a relevant, local type of missionary work (that was the selling point)- but he had no idea how THAT worked, either. He used vague notions of both, added his desire to be worshipped, and made the only "vetting" process "YOU CAN STAY AS LONG AS YOUR MONEY HOLDS" as to whether someone was a viable candidate- and rounded it out with getting free labor from the students- who PAID FOR THE PRIVILIGE of doing manual labor. He made various claims, none of which bear any scrutiny- -this is like what Paul did in Acts -this is based on the military -this is a leadership training program -you can't find better than this in the world etc, etc. The only "professional" part-unless you count the exercise- was when vpw added DALE CARNEGIE SALES CLASSES to the mix. Not training on counseling, not training on management- training in SALES. vpw didn't CARE about how the people were managed, if they ever needed counseling, etc. He wanted the Corps to be effective SALESPEOPLE for twi. Small wonder the Corps program caused lots of problems, released untrained "leaders" who wrecked things, and brought in a tidy profit for twi. Yes, some good people came out of the Corps as well- I hold that to be because they were good people going in and the program was unable to wreck that. In other cases, it WAS able, and in others, people unfit for candidacy had their money so they completed and were assigned places to wreck.

I recommend you read through the 2 "wonderland" threads, "the way:living in wonderland" and "vp and me in wonderland". Sounds like there's a lot on both threads you haven't heard yet.

I was unaware, until today, that he'd said it during lunchtime.

A) I snipped most of the post because nobody was disagreeing with it and I didn't see its direct relevance to the topic. (All Scripture is INdirectly related, but this topic would need thousands of pages if we were going to follow all the indirect discussions no matter how tangential.) If there was a direct relevance, I didn't see the connection. B) How about we get a verse reference for the one thing that directly related to the thread, your quote about "fear and trembling"? Philippians 2:12 KJV 12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. How about other versions on the same verse? Philippians 2:12 NASB 12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12 CEV 12My dear friends, you always obeyed when I was with you. Now that I am away, you should obey even more. So work with fear and trembling to discover what it really means to be saved. What's the context of the verse? Approach the things of God with HUMILITY and grave respect. Philippians 2:1-18 (NASB) 1 Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, 2 make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. 3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; 4 do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. 14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain. 17 But even if I am being poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I rejoice and share my joy with you all. 18 You too, I urge you, rejoice in the same way and share your joy with me. The context of the phrase is HUMILITY, approaching God with an attitude akin to being on your knees before Him. We've been saying that all along. I don't even get what this added to the discussion, except a sort of "I didn't write the book!" comment after presuming the verses suggested we were supposed to be all "AAAAAHHH!" about God. Honestly, Steve, if I thought that was all you could bring to the table, I'd just ignore it, but I know you have so much more to offer. You're trying to communicate something important on your heart, and I think there's a disconnect between your mind and my mind somewhere, whether at the keyboard or wherever.

twi THEMSELVES documented that vpw, as he grew up, REGULARLY vanished when it was time to do his chores and work on the farm. (Seems that whenever he wasn't being watched, he never did what he CLAIMED to do, and had to be watched to be trusted to do ANYTHING.) When he discussed the idea of going into Christian ministry, his own father flatly claimed that was a bad choice because he'd never even put in the effort for something as straightforward as farming. (AS DOCUMENTED BY TWI.) His own brother documented vpw would vanish for hours- then claimed that when Harry himself was unable to see him, vpw was "preaching to the trees"- which was something Billy Graham did. But vpw himself told the corps he was never full of deep spiritual conviction when he was growing up- he was unsure whether to choose business, music, or preaching, according to him. He also was ready, more than once, to give up on ministry, as documented by twi, within his first few years of preaching. Also, he himself (as documented by twi) admitted that his entire decision to be a preacher and his time in school to prepare for that, and his entire first year of preaching, HE DID NOT BELIEVE THE BIBLE WAS THE WORD OF GOD. So, it's plainly obvious that Harry's COVERUP was a lie. vpw ran and hid when it was time to do chores, and he was a lazy farmer. As documented by twi, he REGULARLY claimed that all the kids arriving in twi didn't know how to work. That included "kids" who had already served tours of duty in the US Military. That should raise a few eyebrows- the military puts people to work. By the time any of them had completed Boot Camp, they'd worked harder than vpw had ever worked on the farm. But vpw always claimed they didn't know how to work and he did- which was 2 lies. However, it gave him the opening, the excuse, to put them to work on the farms, for which they PAID for the privilege of doing manual labor. As we can see from this thread, some of the non-military already had practice at working harder on a farm than vpw did. I also think it's cute that vpw was smart enough to occasionally be seen publicly to do some work on the farm. That may have been a show or a few minutes of work, but it went a long way to help cover up his laziness and lies. There's still people who refuse to admit vpw was a lazy bum of a farmer who hypocritically accused others of what he himself did. Even when it was completely false when applied to them.

I know he stated that PRIVATELY when someone asked him. I don't think it was stated PUBLICKLY. (Remember, vpw used ONE face for the public and AT LEAST ONE MORE in private. So, he could be more candid in private.) What I had been told of lcm's selection was that it was like Acts 1 and the lots were cast for him. This, of course, was a complete LIE, since actually people said they thought someone ELSE was a better choice-Walter, etc. vpw had lcm picked YEARS in advance. (See "vp and me".) vpw then told everyone to submit their recommendations to deceive them. If we had known lcm was picked purely because he hopped whenever vpw said "frog", then we would have had a strong clue we needed to look deeper into things. vpw passed along the teachings of others concerning the spirit- Stiles, Leonard, Bullinger- but in PRACTICE never UNDERSTOOD them and certainly didn't PRACTICE them. Oh, he occasionally PRETENDED he did, but the more we look into things, the more that becomes OBVIOUSLY a SHAM. The man demonstrated speaking in tongues with the same sentence every time. He not only was faking it, he wasn't even trying hard to fake it because his audience was ready to disbelieve any evidence he was lying. He faked what he claimed was the FOUNDATION for 9 manifestations. If he faked the FOUNDATION, the entire STRUCTURE was faked or flawed. That's why the Advanced class has a lot of lofty talk, but no demonstrations of divine power. ========================= What did I expect? I expected truly ADVANCED material- deep, profound stuff I'd need to struggle to keep up with. I had a notepad and prepared to take notes and record my notes with comments between the classes so I could study them later in much greater detail. However, the material was a LOT lighter than expected. Tellingly, even cg commented-when running it in Gartmore- that we were covering some basic things- but he was very clever. He made it sound like we WOULD have covered more Advanced material, but the students needed a brush-up on some things instead. Rather than jump into instructions on healing in greater detail, we spent entire sessions on "God loves you" "God heals you". Supposedly, that was the fault of the students who failed to arise sufficiently to just jump in after a few minutes of instruction. Also, what instruction there WAS, was heavy on intellectual factoids and very light on practicality of healing. I've gotten some more insightful comments SECOND-HAND from a Christian nurse who explained healing-to someone who was passing along what she remembered the nurse saying. The Advanced class is built up as incredibly deep and insightful, as being the class for those who have "arrived", so to speak. Compared to what is CLAIMED, what is DELIVERED is actually quite a disappointment. By now, this should be no surprise- twi's practice has regularly been to use the sizzle to sell the steak- then to put cheap burgers on the plates and claim that it's sirloin steak and that anyone who doesn't understand that isn't "spiritual." That's pretty much how it does EVERYTHING.