WordWolf

"Life's like a movie, write your own ending..." "..keep pretending, keep believing, and that's just what we've set out to do...." "...with the lovers...the dreamers...and you!"

No, but we're dealing with a people at a similar tech level.

We can also count him out because I indicated it wasn't rap...

Tough to say. However, vpw had dogs on ground that were trained to attack (RD was threatened with them), and some of the enforcers were armed (with guns.) People WERE threatened with dogs and bullets on different occasions, but I don't know for a fact of any that were SHOT or directly attacked by dogs. I do, however, know of at least one person who was directly threatened with violence for asking ABOUT discussing things with someone, when on grounds. That was me, at my last ROA. In case it's not obvious to the usual people, I failed to respond in the expected fashions. First, the other person tried to use body language to intimidate me, looming over me. I recognized the attempt at the time, and that it was meant to steer the conversation off-topic. So, I kept it on-topic and iced down all my own reactions, getting less and LESS emotional as the other person attempted harder and harder to intimidate me, and got more and more frustrated it wasn't working. So then he tried with a verbal, direct threat of violence. I iced my reactions down even further, and kept talking as if our conversation was utterly normal. I was getting some really good information at the time- more about what was causing that reaction than the information itself. (Subtext and context was speaking VOLUMES.) I was also enjoying the discomfiture the bully was causing HIMSELF while I was controlling myself. Finally, I also reviewed my prospects if he actually attacked me. He was bigger and had more reach, but I was a LOT faster than him, and better-trained. (He relied entirely on bulk and not skill.) If he attacked, he would not have won-I had a number of gambits prepared, and we were talking with plenty of room to maneuver, which gave me the advantage. Any way, HE learned intimidation while in the corps, which he was in at the time. (I'd met him before this.) Some people were apparently TRAINED specifically for this. Why does a supposed Bible group have people trained in intimidation, recommended they learn gun use, and have dogs trained in intimidation?

Ok, next movie. "Life's like a movie, write your own ending..."

"Quite peaceful and highly rational." "Before you start quoting the Prime Directive -- he'd already seen us; the damage was done. It was bring him aboard or let him die." "Then why didn't you let him die?" "Because we were responsible for his injuries!" "I don't know if I concur with that reasoning, Doctor." "Like the Vulcans, they have highly ordered minds...A very sensible people. For example, Mintakan women precede their mates. It's a signal to other women." " 'This man's taken; get your own?' " "Not precisely... More like, 'if you want his services, I'm the one to negotiate with.' " "What kinds of 'services'?" "All kinds." "Ah. They are a sensible race." "There are the stories of the Overseer... who could appear and disappear at will..." "And couldn't this Overseer heal the dead?" "He had supreme power -- or so our ancestors believed." "I believe I've seen the Overseer..." "Uh-oh..." "He is called the Picard." "If you are father and daughter, you may have shared the same dream." "That is not reasonable." "No one's believed that for countless generations. Just as we no longer believe the stars control our fates, or that the spirits of the dead haunt the living." "I'm not saying all the old beliefs are true. But I did see the Picard, and I was restored to life." "This Palmer is one of the Overseer's servants?" "Yes -- the Picard has many servants. Isn't that true?" "According to the legends. But if Palmer is a servant of the Overseer, what was he doing in the cave?" "The Overseer was said to be all-powerful. He could provide gentle winters, plentiful hunting, fertile crops... anything." "You've angered the Picard -- and we may all suffer for it!" Weren't there stories of the Overseer destroying those who offended him?" "Stories. Nothing more." "Perhaps we should punish her -- to let the Overseer know that she and Riker acted alone." "Horrifying... Dr. Barron, Your own reports describe how rational these people are. Millennia ago, they abandoned all belief in the supernatural. And now you're asking me to sabotage that achievement... send them back into the Dark Ages of fear and superstition." "It's not the season for lightning. It must be a warning..." "We've had storms at this time of year before." "Not like this one..." "It must mean something!" "It is beyond my power." "Nothing is beyond your power! You are the Overseer -- I'll prove it!" ""Dr. Barron, I cannot, I will not impose a set of commandments on these people!" ""Look at me... feel the warmth of my hand, the rhythm of my pulse. I'm not a supreme being. I'm flesh and blood, like you." "Not like me." "Like you. Different in appearance, yes, but we are both living beings. We are born, we grow, we live... and we die. In all the ways that matter, we are alike." "Perhaps one day, my people will travel above the skies..." "Of that, I have absolutely no doubt."

I don't think I know any of them either. On the other hand, I know this song...

I've heard at least one claim of people who've been listening to newer stuff. So, something from 2007-2008. "This song was in my head, now it's in my mind, call it reach it get some words and get some timing. And though I realize, I cannot emphasize, I'll stick around but just don't promise, nothing binding. And baby can't you see, that you're so desperately, a standing joker like a vocal one-liner. Instead of sing-a-long, this song is monotone, I've gotta get some soul I gotta get some feeling."

I'll take a wild swing. "When Harry Met Sally"?

[i linked this way so you can follow back to the original post. I'm going to interrupt the quote more than the tags can handle. But anyone can easily see it's all honest quoting.] johniam: "What VP did to Sarah does not constitute "sexual molestation"." A) Let's not use names of non-leaders who don't consent to posting here. B) We do not have proof vpw did what he claimed in public to have done. It is consistent with everything else he said and did, so we all agree he PROBABLY did. If his victim steps forward and confirms it, that's something else. Survivors coming forth and giving direct testimony carries more weight than "I don't think it happened". If he didn't do it, he obviously fantasized in detail about doing it- which is sick and unhealthy, then talked about it- which is demeaning to his MINOR CHILD and also affects his audience. If he did do it, it constituted "sexual molestation" as defined in every state in the Union, including Ohio where he did it. If you intend to put your hands on the "private parts" of someone who is not consenting, that is "sexual molestation." If you put your hands on the "private parts" of a minor, they are legally (and morally) unable to give consent, so that is "sexual molestation" even if the minor lacks a full understanding as to what's going on. And doing that to your own child is even sicker than doing it to a total stranger-which is already sick and perverted. The only obvious exceptions to this would be a medical examination in a doctor's office by a licensed MEDICAL doctor under extremely specific conditions. (A doctor can also go to jail if he's a pervert trying to get sick thrills off his patients.) Or, a paramedic dealing with trying to keep a critically-injured person from dying, which, again, is an extremely specific action. vpw was hardly doing anything approaching either scenario.] johniam: "It wasn't his intent," [A man intends to put his hands on a minor's 'private parts.' He does so. You find out and ask him why, and he claims he meant no harm-he was trying to educate the minor. You believe him and he goes on his way. The police arrive a minute later, and ask him why. He makes the same claim. The police then cart him away because sexual molestation was just performed by him, which is a felony. Then he goes to jail, where even the other inmates look down on those who sexually molest minors. If the man actually told the truth to you, he meant to educate, and sexually molested a minor to perform that education. If he grew up in the US, he HAD to know it was a felony, no matter WHY he wanted to do it. He chose to sexually molest a child regardless. If the man lied to you, he did so knowing full well he was sexually molesting a minor, and lied to the minor and yourself to cover his tracks. So, he committed a felony, knew he committed a felony, and thought you were stupid enough to buy a pack of lies as to it not being a felony and why.] johniam: nor did it do any damage. She married, had children, and she and her husband continue to support a spinoff which follows in the foot steps of VPs teachings. [For someone claiming to understand what happened or didn't happen, you're displaying an impressive amount of ignorance and misinformation. Sexual molestation happens. The victim usually was completely innocent- especially when the victim is a MINOR. Most of the victims of sexual molestation get on with their lives eventually. That does not erase what happened nor make it any less a molestation. Christopher Reeve went on with his life after getting paralyzed from a tragic fall from a horse. That he got on with his life neither negated what happened, nor restored him from paralysis. He survived and did his best to get on with his life despite what happened, IN SPITE OF the damage he suffered.] johniam: How foolish to assign damage and blame where none exists. [A man puts his hands on a minor's "private parts" on purpose. He claims it's not sexual molestation when he sexually molests them because he meant to educate them. Another man says "that's right, and it's foolish to think it was really sexual molestation." A third man says "WHY you molested a minor doesn't erase the fact that you molested a minor" and calls for the police. One of those men spoke "foolishly." Was it the man who said the sexual molester was actually a molester no matter what his excuse was, or was it the man who said that sexual molestation is negated if you have a good enough reason and a pure enough motive to put your hands on a minor's private parts? How foolish to erase blame and claim there was no damage where damage exists.] johniam: I believe most of those women consented. [Even IF that was the case, that doesn't even address sexually molesting a minor, nor does it change what he did to the women who clearly didn't consent- like the ones he drugged unconscious. There's no question as to whether or not THEY consented. Unless one is a 24-carat ignoramus. Then again, since those clearly indicate vpw knew what he was doing and victimized women for his sexual gratification, we'll have to skip over those and address whatever might allow for "wiggle room" and claim vpw was not to blame when he molested women and raped them and so on.] johniam: At least, at the time, thought it an honor to serve the man of God. [That's certainly what vpw pushed quietly, behind the scenes. He passed it along in little whispers and private meetings, so it wouldn't get out to the public- or to the average twi person. Few would have entered twi with the idea that it was a privilege or an "honor" to have sex with a married man and that they should want to have sex with him because he was "the man of God." All or nearly all the people who said or thought that was TAUGHT that IN TWI. That's not taught in mainstream US society. In fact, the only places you hear any talk like that is in CULTS- David Koresh claimed the same privileges, and said he was allowed to have sex with any woman in his Branch Davidians. A tiny minority in twi was watched for, and selected. Those people were told lots of things to get them to believe that men of God should be allowed to commit acts of adultery and fornication, and that the Bible which said it was wrong actually said it was all right. Some of those people rejected that from the beginning and didn't get the full indoctrination. A relative few didn't realize what was going on, and accepted lies and deception about what God wanted, one idea at a time, and then eventually found themselves espousing doctrine the opposite of what the Bible said. vpw taught that doctrine. Was he blameless? Well, was the serpent blameless in Genesis 3 when he got Eve from God's clear instruction to its opposite, and got her to believe a lie? (God said fornication and adultery are wrong, God said they would surely die. vpw said fornication and adultery are acceptable "if you can handle it", the serpent said they would NOT surely die. God said one thing, the serpent- and vpw- said the opposite. Really, this is not hard to understand if one is actually TRYING to understand. Some Kindergarteners could follow this.] johniam: There's no way he could have kept that up for more than 10 years if all those women immediately responded like the girl in Marcia's story. He was already under fire for being a "cult leader". If there had been any evidence whatsoever that he was routinely drugging and raping women the media would have been all over it. Most of those women were Ok with him doing that. [it's a fallacy to think that all the women he molested or raped would immediately have responded in the SAME way. vpw covered his tracks BRILLIANTLY. First, he selected the "best" victims. He found women he thought would not be assertive, who were trusting and naive, and not cynical. (They would trust him more and think "he's trying to rape me" slower than the average woman would.) He especially targeted, among those, women who had previously been victimized by other sexual molesters and rapists. As is commonly known (and should be obvious by now), survivors who grew up with such a history are easier to victimize later because they suffered molestation when they were trying to understand what "normal" is. Second, he set up places to be alone where he could operate uninterrupted. He had LOTS of private little places- he had an office in different buildings, a home, and a SEPARATE OFFICE apart from the buildings. So, he arranged for places he could claim just HAPPENED to be efficient for molesting someone in private. Third, he "primed the pump" by releasing lots of doctrine and ideas on campus about how all that was acceptable, so that people were all desensitized, and he had phrases he could now repeat as "buzzwords" when he decided the time was right to molest and rape the women. Fourth, he prepared a detailed script to play upon a number of emotions- pity (my wife can't satisfy me), pride (it's a privilege to service a man of God when he has 'needs'), and so on. Fifth, he assembled a cadre of people around him, to facilitate this. There were people who looked for sex victims for vpw, people who arranged for them to be alone with vpw, and people to "exit counsel" his victims. If the victim seemed CONFUSED and in shock, the "exit counselors" would bury them in jargon and buzzwords until they were too confused to speak up. If the victim seemed to understand what happened, understood a line was crossed, and was likely to tell someone rather than stay silent, those are the women vpw IMMEDIATELY kicked out of wherever they were, and sent home on a slow Greyhound bus. As soon as they were on the bus, vpw's cadre was busy making phone calls to deatroy the woman's reputation at home, so no one would believe her and vpw's dirty little secret was safe. At least one woman committed suicide because her life was so completely destroyed- She wanted to serve God, and was raped by the man she trusted the most. Confused and emotionally crushed, she was then kicked out of the one group where she invested all her hopes, the only place to serve God and the only purpose in her life. Getting home, she would face all her friends turning against her. With nothing left to turn to, with no one to lean on or lend an ear, and nothing left to live for (AS SHE SAW IT AND AS WAS PLANNED), she just gave up and committed suicide. vpw didn't necessarily PREFER that, but he was fine with that as a result, because a dead woman can't press charges.] johniam: I don't buy the 'authority negates consent' BS either. You can't have it both ways: either they consented (at the time) or they didn't. [You don't understand people at all. Even when signing contracts, under US law, any contract is voided if either party was under DURESS at the time they signed it. There are lots of things that make "consent" MEANINGLESS. "Sign this or I carry out my blackmail." "It's all legal-they signed this, see?" There's other things, but that one is pretty clear-cut as just one example.] johniam: Nobody's letting VP have it both ways, but women today can consent at the time, then claim they didn't consent one day or ten years later and everybody believes them. Nice double standard. [That has nothing to do with the women vpw set out to molest and rape. (Certainly, it's unrelated to the women he drugged and raped.) Sounds like, if he got away with it at the time, it was fine and he shouldn't be blamed for it. Yet if someone murdered your family and got away with it, you'd blame them despite them getting away with it. Nice double standard.] johniam: Being an attractive woman is what LCM called an "arche". A position of dignity. A position of power. It can be that for a guy too, but not nearly as much. Throughout history any woman who is reasonably attractive will have a vehicle of power. Back in the day, when someone got themselves a new car, the tradition was they would take the car to a rural road and see how fast it would go. 100mph? It was possible then. A car has a sphere of power to it's owner. It's natural to wonder what can I do with this power. So it's only natural for women to wonder what they can do with whatever power they have as attractive women. What will happen when I wear this outfit around this crowd? How often do men stop what they're doing and look at me when I walk by? Research. That's not evil, it's even prudent. [You're taking the rationalizations of a man who was TRAINED to rationalize sexual molestation and rape of women by men as ACCEPTABLE and NECESSARY. (vpw told him he would NEED TO "lighten up" in the area of monogamy and faithfulness in marriage.) It's the woman's fault for being attractive- she should have known not to be anywhere around vpw or lcm without wearing a full-body burka? Sure, there's women out there who decide they're going to dress trampy and try to get men (and women) to stare, but there's also men who do the same, and that hardly means that most normal people want to do that. You're married- ask your wife. Did she run around in trampy outfits, glorying in how guys made disgusting noises as she passed by? Is that what she was dressed like when you met her? Or was she a normal woman wearing normal clothing and doing normal things?] johniam: But it must make your blood boil if any man, minister or not, can anticipate your thoughts and take advantage of you. Sexually. Financially. That must hurt. 'Made the world a wilderness' indeed. [it hurts ANY person whenever ANY person takes advantage of them- whether sexually, financially, socially, or any other way.] johniam: I read John Schoenheit's adultery paper once, ten years ago. It was a word study. It made sense. The #1 scripture I think of on that subject is in Proverbs. A wound and dishonor will he get. Not good. I really did benefit from being in twi much much more than I suffered anything. I don't believe VP is near the monster some of you make him out to be, but he's got to have some 'splaining to do. That's good enough for me. [You need to reread it again. You've been arguing against some of his points. Congratulations on getting more out of twi and suffering less for being in it. As I've said many times, I'm glad I got in, and glad I got out. I received benefits- but the cost of those benefits was paid for by many of my fellow Christians, for whom Christ died. Please note that "I received benefits" can still be true even if "the person I got the benefits from was a greedy, lying pervert" is also true. One doesn't negate the other. (Of course, a SEPARATE discussion would be whether or not the PERCEIVED benefits were ACTUAL benefits, but any ACTUAL benefits would still be true.]

I can see that some of us can't cross from "idyllic fantasy of my youth" to "the ugly truth behind the scenes while I thought everything was fine."

www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/waydale/waydale-lawsuit/john-schoenheits-adultery--fornication_4.html Appendix A Reason: In the Old Testament men were allowed to have more than one wife. Surely things are not stricter in the "Grace Administration" than they were under the Law. God must allow men to have intercourse with other women besides their wives, especially single women. Answer: Men were allowed to have more than one wife in the Old Testament (Exodus 21:10 and Deuteronomy 21:15). That is not the case in the Grace Administration as Corinthians, Timothy, and Titus make clear. Timothy and Titus are specifically addressed to leaders in the church. According to I Timothy 3:2 and Titus 1:6, a "bishop" (episkopos), i.e., one who is a ruling elder, an overseer, in the church, must be the "husband of one wife." According to I timothy 3:12, the "deacons" (diakonos), i.e., one who serves in the Body of Christ, are also to be the "husband of one wife". Thus the Word of God clearly states that any man who serves in the Body of Christ must only have one wife. More than that, however, the Word of God declares that every Christian man should have just one wife and every Christian woman should have just one husband. Corinthians, which is addressed to every believer, addresses the one-husband, one-wife issue. Corinthians says "Let every man have his own wife and every woman have her own husband" (I Corinthians 7:2). This verse clearly sets the monogamous Christian marriage. If the wife is sharing her husband with other wives, then the husband is not "her own," but is shared property. Similarly, a woman is not to have more than one husband, for then she would not be "his own." Thus although the Old Testament Law allowed for more than one wife, the New Testament does not. Believers in the Grace Administration are not allowed to have more than one wife, and they are not allowed to "sleep around" either. I Corinthians 7:1: Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. The essential meaning of the word "touch" in this context is "touch as if the woman were your wife." Bauer's lexicon handles the word "touch" as sexual intercourse with a woman. In the Grace Administration, the wife is to meet the sexual needs of the husband and vice-versa. Even though the Old Testament Law made provision for a man to have more than one wife, there were laws governing people's sexual behavior. Each wife was to be well taken care of, having food, raiment and sexual companionship. Deuteronomy 21:10 If he take him another wife, her food her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish. Adultery was forbidden in the ten commandments and was punishable by death (Exodus 20:14; Leviticus 20:10). Deuteronomy 22:22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that shall lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel. If a man had sexual intercourse with a free woman who was betrothed, that was also considered either adultery or rape. If the act occurred in the city, the act was considered to be adultery and the man and the woman were stoned to death. If the act occurred out in the countryside, the act was considered rape and only the man was killed (Deuteronomy 22:23-27). Thus, whether the betrothed woman was willing or not, if a man had intercourse with a betrothed free woman, he was killed. If a man had sexual intercourse with a slave who was betrothed, there were still consequences, but they were less severe. The woman was scourged (whipped) and the man fined. Leviticus 19:20-22 And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free. And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the Lord, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, even a ram for a trespass offering. And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the Lord for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him. It is noteworthy that even though the consequences for adultery with a betrothed slave girl were less severe, the act itself was called a "sin" twice in verse 22. If a man had sexual intercourse with a single woman, he had to marry her. Exodus 22:16 And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. The one exception to this occurred if the girl's father absolutely refused to let the man marry his daughter. In that case, the man was required to pay a fine equal to the "the dowry of virgins" (Exodus 22:17). Even if a man found a single woman and raped her, he had to marry her. Deuteronomy 22:28 and 29 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away (i.e. divorce her) all his days. These two verses refer to rape, according to the context. Verses 26 and 27, just prior to these, refer to rape, and the words "lay hold on her" in verse 28 indicate rape. The New International Version translates Deuteronomy 22:28 and 29 as follows: "If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.* One reason the Law of Moses specified that single girls marry the man who seduced or raped them was that if a girl was not a virgin on her wedding night she could be stoned to death. Deuteronomy 22:10-21 But if this thing (the woman's not being a virgin) be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you. From the above information it can be seen that Israel under the Law was not a sexual panacea, where men had the sexual affections of women freely available to them. If they had more than one wife, they had to make sure that each was well taken care of. If he seduced or raped a married or betrothed woman, he was stoned to death. If he seduced or raped a single woman, he was forced to marry her. People have tried to say that the Old Testament Law does not forbid a man to visit a prostitute or have intercourse with his slave girls. Although it is true that in practice men did visit prostitutes and take advantage of their slave girls, had the Law been properly applied, this would not have happened. Thus, if the Law was carried out, the master would have married his slave girl, and the prostitute would have married her first customer.** From the above evidence it can be seen that the men of the Old Testament did not live in a society where they had vast sexual freedom. Yes, they could have more than one wife, while we today in the Grace Administration cannot. Although the reasons why God allowed more than one wife in the Old Testament but only allows one wife today may not be clear, one thing is clear: The Word of God does say that today, in the Grace Administration, marriage is to be monogamous. Having sexual intercourse with a woman who is not your wife is a sin. www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/waydale/waydale-lawsuit/john-schoenheits-adultery--fornication_18.html My story (short version): In the spring of 1986 a girl came to me and said she had had sexual intercourse with Dr. Wierwille. I had no reason to doubt her as we were friends and she "had her head on her shoulders" in life. I started asking around to girls I knew always got to ride on the motor coach, fly on Ambassador 1, get "back room" duty instead of housekeeping or grounds, etc. Lo and behold, I talked to many women that were very candid about their sexual relations with leadership. Perhaps the most disturbing thing about those months was the developing picture was that this was not just practical sin based on lust but rather was sin based on wrong doctrine--many of the people involved thought it was okay with God. In fact, all of the "reasons" that I wrote about in my appendix came out of the mouths of women I talked to. I would ask them why they thought it was okay or why they were told it was okay and those were the reasons I got, so that is why I answered those specific questions. {So, his KNOWN victims over the legal age of consent should be thankful he waited until they were of legal age of consent before he raped, molested, drugged them? And he had to SEE THE FACES of SOME of those women to know "that they weren't blessed" to see a problem? A man who supposedly not only knew the Bible, but knew it well enough to teach others and claim he had an understanding that surpassed all those of the last 2000 years?]

The Wilburys are worth a listen. You'd listen, probably, if you didn't know them as Jethro, Muddy, Boo, etc but as Bob Dylan, George Harrison, Tom Petty, Roy Orbison, and Jeff Lynne (ELO).

I suspect there's almost no Traveling Wilburys fans here. Me, I'm a fan of Boo, Muddy, Otis, Charlie T Jr, etc. *snicker* This was the opening of "End of the Line." I forget if that was off the first album (Volume One) or the second (Volume Three.) BTW, some of us have Javascript turned OFF for any of a number of reasons. (Security, office firewall...) So, when you give the answer as a link or hotlink to a video, we see a blank space, or some abstract symbol. That means we have no idea what you were trying to say. So, how about actually writing out the name below the link, in the post, somewhere? If someone's logging in from a mobile device and they pay for bandwidth, they have to use up rationed bandwidth to get an answer you could have typed just as fast....

"Quite peaceful and highly rational." "Before you start quoting the Prime Directive -- he'd already seen us; the damage was done. It was bring him aboard or let him die." "Then why didn't you let him die?" "Because we were responsible for his injuries!" "I don't know if I concur with that reasoning, Doctor." "Like the Vulcans, they have highly ordered minds...A very sensible people. For example, Mintakan women precede their mates. It's a signal to other women." " 'This man's taken; get your own?' " "Not precisely... More like, 'if you want his services, I'm the one to negotiate with.' " "What kinds of 'services'?" "All kinds." "Ah. They are a sensible race." "There are the stories of the Overseer... who could appear and disappear at will..." "And couldn't this Overseer heal the dead?" "He had supreme power -- or so our ancestors believed." "I believe I've seen the Overseer..." "Uh-oh..." "He is called the Picard." "If you are father and daughter, you may have shared the same dream." "That is not reasonable." "No one's believed that for countless generations. Just as we no longer believe the stars control our fates, or that the spirits of the dead haunt the living." "I'm not saying all the old beliefs are true. But I did see the Picard, and I was restored to life." "This Palmer is one of the Overseer's servants?" "Yes -- the Picard has many servants. Isn't that true?" "According to the legends. But if Palmer is a servant of the Overseer, what was he doing in the cave?" "The Overseer was said to be all-powerful. He could provide gentle winters, plentiful hunting, fertile crops... anything." "You've angered the Picard -- and we may all suffer for it!" Weren't there stories of the Overseer destroying those who offended him?" "Stories. Nothing more." "Perhaps we should punish her -- to let the Overseer know that she and Riker acted alone." "Your own reports describe how rational these people are. Millennia ago, they abandoned all belief in the supernatural. And now you're asking me to sabotage that achievement... send them back into the Dark Ages of fear and superstition." "It's not the season for lightning. It must be a warning..." "We've had storms at this time of year before." "Not like this one..." "It must mean something!" "It is beyond my power." "Nothing is beyond your power! You are the Overseer -- I'll prove it!"

Romans 1:1-7 (KJV) 1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: 6Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: 7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 1:1-7 (NASB) 1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, 5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ; 7 to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. [The entire LETTER of Paul to the Romans was a single letter, which was addressed to the Christians of Rome. Anything in the actual letter that appears to be otherwise must be read in the context of THE ENTIRE LETTER. Stop and think. It is SENSELESS to think that Paul would be instructed to write a letter to the Christians and suddenly have it diverge for a page to address local Jews, and another page to address local Gentiles. They would never READ the letter! It's all ONE letter. It talks TO Christians. Therefore, when it speaks "to you Gentiles", it should be amazingly OBVIOUS it is not addressing Joe Gentile down the street, but Christians in Rome- and when you remember that, it takes little thought to realize it's addressing the born again GENTILES rather than unbelieving ones, just as some letters were addressed to born again JEWS rather than unbelieving ones. ("To the 12 tribes"..) I got to thinking about that after it was just used again today to excuse us from having to ACT rightly since we're Christians. vpw misused this verse (what else is new?) to allow himself room to sin with impunity and insist God wouldn't mind. He taught it accordingly, and we all bought into it for a time. (Anyone still buying into it after their next read after this, however, has no excuse for just blowing off what it REALLY means.]

You have some interesting stuff there. When you have a chance, I'd recommend checking your site. Looks like you moved some things around, and there's dead links pointing to where they WERE rather than where they ARE.

"Quite peaceful and highly rational." "It was bring him aboard or let him die." "Then why didn't you let him die?" "If you are father and daughter, you may have shared the same dream." "That is not reasonable." "No one's believed that for countless generations. Just as we no longer believe the stars control our fates, or that the spirits of the dead haunt the living." "According to the legends. But if Palmer is a servant of the Overseer, what was he doing in the cave?" "The Overseer was said to be all-powerful. He could provide gentle winters, plentiful hunting, fertile crops... anything." "Weren't there stories of the Overseer destroying those who offended him?" "Stories. Nothing more." "Perhaps we should punish her -- to let the Overseer know that she and Riker acted alone." "Your own reports describe how rational these people are. Millennia ago, they abandoned all belief in the supernatural. And now you're asking me to sabotage that achievement... send them back into the Dark Ages of fear and superstition." "It's not the season for lightning. It must be a warning..." "We've had storms at this time of year before." "Not like this one..." "It must mean something!" "It is beyond my power." "Nothing is beyond your power! You are the Overseer -- I'll prove it!"

"Quite peaceful and highly rational." "It was bring him aboard or let him die." "Then why didn't you let him die?" "If you are father and daughter, you may have shared the same dream." "That is not reasonable."

Eh, was I right?

This is going to take some explaining, and I'll add links when I have time. Back when vpw hijacked the hippies. he sold them a complete package. The package was "twi doctrine and practice" and offered a structure more liberal than any church. (How many respectable churches are cool with people smoking pot and making out at meetings?) That was obviously meant to lure in the hippies. For the serious Christians, there was a GOAL, one made into a nice slogan every twi'er heard regularly- "Word Over the World." The idea was to take God's Word (as taught by twi) to every person on the Earth so they could make an informed decision as to whether to choose to serve God or to refuse to do so. There were a few rumors that accompanied that, of course. I can think of two. One, that Jesus Christ would return shortly after every single person had heard. Two, that it would happen during vpw's lifetime. (A lot of people I knew were surprised it didn't happen before he died.) So, there were programs (Word Over the World Ambassadors, aka WOW Ambassadors), there were slogans, songs, and even hand signals. (The hand signal didn't last, but it's seen in a photo in twi's own book, The Way:Living in Love.) So, "we've got to take The Word over the world", and "it's up to us because no other Christians can possibly manage it since they're all screw-ups." This was a cause and a goal for expansive growth locally, among others- more people spoken to meant more Christians, which is a victory to begin with, but also more people to speak to those who haven't heard, and thus we're a tiny bit closer to the goal with each new Christian who joined the group. If they were not born again before, then there's a new Christian, and if they were, now they're an "effective" Christian since now they've learned to do things "correctly." After vpw died, a few years followed with lots of controversy. Women came forward about vpw molesting them or other twi leaders molesting them (vpw said they could...) This led to "the fog years" where lcm wandered around, wondering what happened because he was following vpw doctrine rather than The Spirit, and it wasn't working but he thought he was doing God's will. At the end (1988-1989), lcm demanded an oath of loyalty from all the twi'ers, starting with the top leaders and down to the local ones. Any one who didn't swear one to lcm HIMSELF (for example, those who quoted the Bible and didn't want to choose among men) was KICKED OUT. In about a year (not counting exits in the Fog Years), twi lost about 80% of its membership and leadership. Since lcm kicked them out en masse, many were able to continue to work together locally and statewide, and this really worked against twi. So, lcm now had a small group left. Now he began teaching about "the remnant" and things about how numbers don't count", and had blind loyalists as the rank-and-file. Within a few years, he got REALLY weird- he had decided that every fool thought that went through his head was approved by God and probably was sent directly BY God. A guy who liked to condemn doctrines of Papal Infallibility began to, in effect, claim just that for himself....and worse, since Papal Infallibility only affects formal declarations and not "I'd like chicken for dinner." lcm decided that everything he uttered was infallible, and to question that was to question God Almighty. Naturally, his gross incompetence combined with that and led to one major failure after another, plus one minor failure after another. One evening, lcm went up to the podium and made an announcement: God Almighty had just told him that The Word was now Over The World. Naturally, this sounded like nonsense- twi was now tiny compared to what it once was, and NOW they got to EVERYONE? But this was the era of overt blind loyalty, and to even THINK lcm was wrong was heresy. Now what? Well, if twi's goal was accomplished, they needed a new one. Now that The Word was Over The World, lcm announced twi had crossed into The Promised Land of The Prevailing Word, which has pretty much been the twi slogan, goal, etc since then. www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/waydale/waydale-documents-html/staff-meeting-at-the-way-international-headquarters-on-04/14/1996.html Where did the slogan come from? lcm was lousy at Bible research (an odd deficiency for a Biblical Research ministry, but there's been a low standard since the beginning-although vpw was very good at FAKING IT for the masses.) His one supposed claim was he understood Acts. He even taught a class and "wrote a book" on the subject, "The Rise and Expansion (of the First Century Church)". Mind you, twi's expert on how the early Christians exploded in numbers oversaw a period of 80% of the people leaving- followed by slow trickles of more people leaving after that and during his reign. He used the KJV for Acts 19:20 "So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed." I'm not aware of vpw using it like this, but perhaps he did and lcm ran with it. That wouldn't be the first time. vpw taught ONCE on "athletes of the spirit" and lcm (the dumb jock) ran with it, wouldn't let it go, and plagiarized a Hollywood movie (Staying Alive) to put on a 2-hour dance production on the subject. (I kid you not.) As you can see from the link I provided, lcm was seriously unstable while he was making his initial explanations about how this was supposed to work. Since lcm was kicked out (officially he was "placed on spiritual probation" and the official word is that he's out), nobody's had enough personality to even ATTEMPT something new. If they did, rfr would have them kicked out as a threat to her authority, as if the remaining twi hasn't strangled out the ability to think from the remaining insiders. So, wherever vpw or lcm left off with stuff is where it will stay, more or less, until twi closes its doors because nobody is listening any more.

The Q quotes didn't clue me in. However, Mc Coy's exchange with Data did. This is "Encounter at Farpoint", the series premiere of NextGen. Give me a little time, my internet access is sporadic today (moreso than my time! :) )

vpw criticized hypocrites who cherry-picked the verses they wanted and skipped the verses they didn't like. Then, of course, vpw WAS a hypocrite who cherry-picked the verses he wanted and glossed over the verses he didn't like. He'd acknowledge them lightly in public but never seem to bring them up when discussing conduct of leaders and so on. vpw was quite experienced at finding verses that he could DISTORT to make it sound like they supported what he wanted to believe. In private, he "found" a verse that said God was ok with ORGIES- although they weren't His optimal choice, He would ACCEPT them. So it should surprise no one that a verse that says "no condemnation" would be creatively interpreted to mean that no instance of GUILT should ever remain after doing anything, no matter how sinful an action was. vpw moved the boundaries of interpreting Scripture so that Christians were allowed to sin a lot so long as they didn't feel guilty about it. And he championed that position.

A lot of the time, the only drug used was alcohol, and that's available all over the US, so it's easy to find near any twi locale. vpw, of course, made drinking alcohol a part of the twi experience at a certain level- HE drank the stuff every day, including when he traveled. (A poster here posted their surprise- when vpw was expected to visit for TWO days, that person was tasked with buying a FEW bottles of Drambuie for him, something they'd never HEARD of before then. Apparently, vpw went through something like a bottle a day of Drambuie when visiting.) So, he prepped for women to accept a drink (or 2 or 4) when he offered them one, when alone with them. As for the rest, I have no specifics, only general information. It's common knowledge that tranquilizers were a LOT easier to get a prescription for sometime after the early 1950s. It's hardly shocking if vpw was getting valium or something similar. He might even have convinced an innocent, non-twi doctor that he was having trouble sleeping and gotten a Rx for them. At the time, that was not rare in the US. So, he worked with alcohol and some sort of tranquilizing agent, and neither was prohibitively hard to get at the time. ==================== I thought I saw someone comment about orgies in twi. As far as I know, there were no actual orgies in twi. (At least, I've never heard of any, and I wasn't invited if there were any.) However, now that I give the matter a little thought, it's obvious this was something vpw WANTED but couldn't HAVE. Look back at when he hijacked the hippies. He read about Christians in the Haight-Ashbury area omong the hippies. He'd heard that there was a lot of "free love" among hippies, including orgies. vpw headed out specifically to THOSE Christians. (Not any more local to him, even though it would have been easier to stay in contact with some, say, within a state or so at some college.) He approached them, and noted (even in the sanitized version) how comfortable they were with each other's bodies. He EXPECTED to find hippie Christians who were comfortable with orgies, and that seemed to support his expectation. When alone and drinking with J1m D00p, vpw asked him-repeatedly- about attendance at an orgy, and pressed for SPECIFICS. At that moment, vpw VOLUNTEERED his own invention- a twisting of a verse to claim God was ok with orgies. When D00p resisted the idea, vpw dropped the subject. Time for Plan B- sex with individual hippychicks without orgies. When pliant hippychicks failed to drop out of the sky (boy, what a waste of time to have gone to Haight-Ashbury, he hasn't been able to score any boom-boom from the trip, even after!) he goes to Plan C- using the recruited hippies to recruit youngsters (which he was already doing), and recruit from among THOSE youngsters to bring some on campus, where he could try to cheat on his wife and see how many were willing to have sex with him. That led to Plan D- tricking women into having sex with him from among those on campus. If you look at this from a perspective of "was vpw looking to score sex partners?" then the entire history of twi becomes frighteningly CONSISTENT and makes a lot of sense. Granted, I think he also wanted money, a comfortable living, and much bestowed respect, but the path he selected seems to have been steered straight for "youngsters who might be ok with casual sex with an old married guy."

When vpw went to Haight-Ashbury to hijack the hippies and recruit them, he was looking for youngsters who'd be cool with casual sex. twi's own account quoted vpw happy with how casual they were physically with each other. vpw went to J1m D00p and asked him, a few times, what it was like to ATTEND AN ORGY (which JD had shown up for once, but left a few minutes into it and was embarrassed about the whole thing.) After he convinced JD to describe it to him, vpw told JD that it was ok with God to PARTICIPATE IN ORGIES, and quoted a verse of Scripture out of context, then distorted its meaning ridiculously to claim it supported his doctrine. When vpw was refining his vague ideas that he stamped into the first way corps, and tried to make a real program out of what he already had running and called one, he set up the thing as a sort of predatory watering hole. He began by requiring each candidate to write up an autobiography and submit it. When any woman wrote something about an incident of sexual abuse in her past, vpw set her autobiography aside, and he targeted her for sexual abuse of his own when she was on campus. At least two women reported that they had such an incident in her write-up, and vpw called them alone and fed them a line about God wanting him to molest them properly so they'd be healed of whatever happened before. One of them reported that he had her autobiography in his hand when she arrived. Many of us know that those who have suffered abuse in their past are easier to victimize later. I'm confident, based on his behaviour, that vpw knew it as well, and counted on it. We also know he tried to have the women drink with him, and some of those drinks had drugs in them to knock them out (at least one reported here about having survived such an encounter with that pervert.) And yes, there was a whole framework he set up to find the women most east to victimize, to arrange to have him alone with them, and to have someone monitor them afterwards to hush them up, or have them ostracized and silenced if they showed signs of preparing to speak up. He also told lcm that he'd HAVE to do the same-he'd have to "loosen up" regarding extramarital sex. vpw's greatest accomplishments may revolve around the most thorough part of twi- his cadre of insiders to facilitate sexual abuse from vpw to God's precious ones for whom Christ died. Whenever I hear someone question whether the word "worshiped" is a bit strong to apply to how some people saw-and see- vpw, I just remember that they made a graven image of vpw. There's an ugly metal statue of vpw in the auditorium. And twi sold smaller models of it for homes, so any twi'er could have a graven image of vpw in their home. It's also S.O.P. for twi'ers to have photographs of the Board up in their living room. (The small wallet-sized photos would end up on a shelf or table.)