WordWolf

*cough*30 pieces of silver, not 13 pieces of silver*cough*

Reread "the way:living in wonderland." twi loaded his language with a lot of suggestive phrasing when describing his dealings with her, and then there was a gap in time for a few hours, immediately followed by vpw asking God for forgiveness and never said WHY. That's in HIS OWN WORDS.

Don't excuse vpw and company with the Great Depression. They spent lots of money when they wanted to. They just wanted EVERYONE ELSE to live at a low standard. The "Corps Chalet" was promised to the people who worked on it-they and their peers would get to use it. But it turned out nice and was given to lcm to use, no apologies given. vpw told people that CREMATION was a good way to be buried, then had arrangements to have himself buried in a fancier style. lcm learned to make sure he ate enough food in college if not sooner. (College students learn that, and any football coach will make sure his team isn't starving if he has to get on them to eat-as if that's ever an issue.) After a few years with vpw, lcm had learned to be so cheap that he sent of twi worker bees without any CHANCE at breakfast. (You're not getting anything out of ME that way-I need food or that's all I'm going to think about UNTIL I get food.) vpw had to moderate his words and try to explain the difference between "stingy" and "cheap"-as vpw saw it, one is good, the other is not. vpw lived in as fancy a style as he could siphon off of twi at any time. He told OTHER PEOPLE to do things, and when they weren't looking, he had a different standard for HIMSELF.

The goal for twi is for them to OWN you. To do that, they have to be the dominant force in your life. To do THAT, they can't let you have any freedom- freedom to think, freedom to live where you want, freedom to choose, freedom to do your own thing. When it comes to any holiday, people have expectations to DO things. twi can either short-circuit the holiday (schedule an event so you can't have Thanksgiving, which happened several years with an Advanced Class Special), or take over the holiday. In taking over the holiday, they leave what you wanted to do (at least in part), but RENAME it so they own it and your language isolates you from people outside twi, and they make small changes or additions here and there so eventually the holiday isn't quite the same one as the rest of the US experiences. That's why they renamed a few holidays. It's about CONTROL.

This was an important distinction to make. Yes, we gave them the power- they lied to us, and deceived us, and we gave it under false pretenses. But the deception was theirs, the deception was deliberate- so the guilt is theirs. We can take back our consent whenever we wish. Being deceived can affect when or even IF you wish it, however.

Oh, for God's sake, this is a dead issue, I misunderstood something. Here it is, and if there's anything else to derail this thread on it, please pm me with it. I misunderstood and replied "And where is this "8 million strong" number being hallucinated from? twi claimed to have had 100,000 people- which meant MAYBE that many people EVER SIGNED UP FOR PFAL WORLDWIDE- and we all know some people never made it to Session 1, some people left before Session 12, and some people left right after Session 12. twi never had 50,000 people at any one time." HCW answered me: "I think Sky was referring 8 million in megachurches...." skyrider replied with a specific source, making it clear it meant megachurches "Megachurches..... *Steven Waldman, "Fastest Growing Religion=No Religion(New Religious Identification Survey)," beliefnet.com, March 9, 2009" So, I understood and explained. "I thought "They gotta be raking in more $ than twi ever did with 8 million strong." meant "twi had 8 million people once, these others have more" rather than "since they have 8 million people-more than twi ever had- they have to have more money" (which is what was meant.) So, 8 million is the mega-churches, not a twi number. Glad we cleared that up." The latter 2 comments were interpretations. NOBODY said "twi had 8 million people once, these people have more" and NOBODY said "since they have 8 million people-more than twi ever had- they have to have more money." However, the second one carries rhe MEANING of what I'd quoted at the top.

I thought "They gotta be raking in more $ than twi ever did with 8 million strong." meant "twi had 8 million people once, these others have more" rather than "since they have 8 million people-more than twi ever had- they have to have more money" (which is what was meant.) So, 8 million is the mega-churches, not a twi number. Glad we cleared that up. ===================== Some people have thought that a decent ballpark of twi membership was double the ROA attendance in any year. That makes sense to me- people who CAN go, DO go, but many can't get the time off of work or otherwise have responsibilities. (Before 1990, at least-afterwards I think it became mandatory and "punishable" -sanctions were used- if you missed the ROA.) For that matter, some people actually couldn't afford the trip. twi never did find a way to help people improve their salaries so they could tithe a larger amount- they preferred to squeeze people for higher percentages or increase the number of people. So, most leadership would show up, and much of the rank-and-file nationally. Maybe that made closer to 1/2 the membership than most in the 80s, and the 90s meant almost all remaining people were in attendance (when the numbers were much smaller.) At the highest, that would still put numbers under 50,000 even with the most generous guesstimates.

It was the PERCEPTION that churches AS A WHOLE were strict, stifling, legalistic, dry, etc- that made many of us easy targets for groups like twi. twi's ADVERTISING was that it was both free of legalism and it had answers the churches didn't-and couldn't- have. (It still claims that but they're obviously lies NOW.) Back in the 1970s, there were PLENTY of churches that had movement and freedom. It wasn't that ALL the young people just got up and left churches- some did things IN churches, and worshipped with less staleness and more fresh air. I saw examples in what was normally a dry, sterile RC Church, and the entire Pentecostal movement existed in complete opposition to the description you're giving. Just because, say, you never attended an "Assemblies of God" church or any other "Pentecostal" church didn't mean they weren't there. They existed and were growing while twi was growing- and they grow to this day. In fact, one church in my old neighborhood had to be rebuilt as a BIGGER church because there were too many members to meet comfortably where they were meeting at the time... not to mention ANOTHER Pentecostal church being built in the same neighborhood (as in "I can walk from one to the other.") There was an entire MOVEMENT called "charismatic" back in the 60s and 70s. That's what vpw READ ABOUT and decided to get in on. By the time he read any magazine articles, local people had been doing things for YEARS. It's just plain SAD to not be aware of it NOW. I mean, a few clicks of the mouse, and you can get documentation of this even if you never noticed it back then. No, the wildly divergent DOCTRINE was a big reason, and the wildly divergent PRACTICE was another... and the "thought control" stuff put it over the top. The idea that twi was called a cult solely because of its size is nothing more than ignoring any sign otherwise and still swallowing the "press releases" of twi. "Oh, the big churches object to us because we're taking people away from them...." Nonsense like that. The STUPID people called twi a cult because of different doctrine (soul sleep, annihilationism, the Trinity), and the SMART people called twi a cult because of its structure and control exerted over members (single authority lacking any accountability, indoctrination, etc.) twi always WAS a cult, but it was a cult with a strongly controlled center (what vpw WANTED) and much of the outer edges had little control (which is what vpw did NOT want but it supported the center and vpw was practical about his cult organization.) If twi had been OBVIOUSLY a cult from the first day, very few of us would have fallen for it. "In vain is the net set in sight of any bird." When outsider objected, they usually objected to the more stupid things to object to- debatable doctrine or things that sounded made up- instead of learning what the REAL things to object to were. That meant vpw was able to spin it to his advantage- "See? The people who claim I'm a fraud can only complain about lies or doctrinal things where they are in error and we have The Truth." And where is this "8 million strong" number being hallucinated from? twi claimed to have had 100,000 people- which meant MAYBE that many people EVER SIGNED UP FOR PFAL WORLDWIDE- and we all know some people never made it to Session 1, some people left before Session 12, and some people left right after Session 12. twi never had 50,000 people at any one time.

vpw played to his strengths. He was able to play this homespun "good old boy" who only knew Scripture because God taught him, and targeted people who talked and thought like that. When this didn't really inflate numbers, he went to Haight-Ashbury and recruited city kids. This didn't change the country focus- there were BANDS and a TELEVISION SHOW with country settings even though most of the new folks weren't into it. But vpw was into it and that's all twi needs to justify anything. Of course, vpw never WANTED city kids, probably because city kids are more likely to get more EDUCATION, and that runs the risk of seeing through his deceptions.

In churches nowadays, there ARE small numbers in groups IN the larger churches! Want to meet a few times a week for someone to teach from the Bible, pray, and socialize? Look around- lots more people are doing that in churches than in twi OR its splinters. I've sat in on a few. As to the first century church leaders, they'd never recognize twi. They were struggling to stay alive and ahead of people trying to imprison and/or kill them. They NEVER sat studying words and their meanings. They didn't schedule "witnessing" outings. They didn't run classes. They didn't sell books or magazines. They didn't have central authority- local areas were TRULY autonomous. They didn't charge for ANYTHING. Everything was freewill donations. They demonstrated power and authority every day-and that's why people were willing to join up with people that were being persecuted. twi more resembles the Pharisees struggling to silence the Christians.

It is "The Drumhead." Your description was almost completely off, however. The Klingon J'Dan joins the Enterprise in the officer exchange program. He turns out to be a spy, and is caught in the investigation following an explosion in Main Engineering. Retired Admiral Norah Satie (played by Jean Simmons) arrives to investigate, along with her old staff. She uses the Betazoid's empathic abilities to decide who to focus the investigation on, which Picard objects to. The investigation covers everyone who ever met J'Dan, including a medical technician named Simon Tarses. The explosion turns out to be an industrial accident-metal fatigue and not sabotage. Simon Tarses, however, is still being investigated. His Starfleet records show him as 1/4 Vulcan, but he's 1/4 ROMULAN and lied on his application. His career is over. (One of the novels later said he started over and made it through the Academy, becoming a medical Doctor.) There's nobody else guilty except J'Dan- but Admiral Satie is determined to find the conspiracy of traitors onboard the Enterprise. So, your turn!

"Villains who twirl their mustaches are easy to spot. Those who clothe themselves in good deeds are well-camouflaged." "What do you think?" "It's hard to tell. He is very closed... but...He is hiding something." "I've managed to acquire my former staff... My aide, Sabin Genestra, from Betazed, and my assistant, Nellen Tore, from Delb Two." "Are you... aware... of any other Romulan-Klingon connections that Starfleet Command might have encountered recently?" "I don't believe... what Starfleet Command knows or doesn't know is for me to reveal." "A review of the sensor logs indicates that every systems reading was well within normal parameters until fifty-two milliseconds before the explosion." "We haven't found anything that suggests there was a malfunction anywhere along the line." "This is J'Dan's. It is fitted with an optical reader...specially modified to read data from Starfleet isolinear chips.He can extract digital information from a computer... encode it in the form of amino-acid sequences, and transfer those sequences into a fluid in the syringe... Then he injects someone, perhaps even without their knowledge..." "Or perhaps with their knowledge..." "The information would be carried in their bloodstream in the form of inert proteins." "The body itself becomes a conveyor of top-secret files..." "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. And then, before you can blink an eye, suddenly it threatens to start all over again." "My father was a great man! His name stands for integrity and principle! You dirty his name when you speak it. He loved the Federation! But you, Captain, corrupt it! You undermine our very way of life! I will expose you for what you are!" "The blood of all Klingons has become water." "You've admitted your crime. Why lie now?" "Let's keep our perspective, gentlemen. Just because there was no sabotage doesn't mean there's not a conspiracy on this ship. We do have a confessed spy." "And he had confederates." "Do we know that for sure?" "Of course he did." Me, I was curious whose idea it was to have a member of KISS appear on a Star Trek show. ;)

Thanks-this is the first I'd heard of it. I'm not sure what to make of it, but I will watch it.

"Villains who twirl their mustaches are easy to spot. Those who clothe themselves in good deeds are well-camouflaged." "What do you think?" "It's hard to tell. He is very closed... but...He is hiding something." "I've managed to acquire my former staff... My aide, Sabin Genestra, from Betazed, and my assistant, Nellen Tore, from Delb Two." "Are you... aware... of any other Romulan-Klingon connections that Starfleet Command might have encountered recently?" "I don't believe... what Starfleet Command knows or doesn't know is for me to reveal." "A review of the sensor logs indicates that every systems reading was well within normal parameters until fifty-two milliseconds before the explosion." "We haven't found anything that suggests there was a malfunction anywhere along the line." "It is fitted with an optical reader...specially modified to read data from Starfleet isolinear chips.He can extract digital information from a computer... encode it in the form of amino-acid sequences, and transfer those sequences into a fluid in the syringe... Then he injects someone, perhaps even without their knowledge..." "Or perhaps with their knowledge..." "The information would be carried in their bloodstream in the form of inert proteins." "The body itself becomes a conveyor of top-secret files..." "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. And then, before you can blink an eye, suddenly it threatens to start all over again." "My father was a great man! His name stands for integrity and principle! You dirty his name when you speak it. He loved the Federation! But you, Captain, corrupt it! You undermine our very way of life! I will expose you for what you are!" You might be on the wrong track....

"Villains who twirl their mustaches are easy to spot. Those who clothe themselves in good deeds are well-camouflaged." "What do you think?" "It's hard to tell. He is very closed... but...He is hiding something." "I've managed to acquire my former staff... My aide, Sabin Genestra, from Betazed, and my assistant, Nellen Tore, from Delb Two." "Are you... aware... of any other Romulan-Klingon connections that Starfleet Command might have encountered recently?" "I don't believe... what Starfleet Command knows or doesn't know is for me to reveal." "A review of the sensor logs indicates that every systems reading was well within normal parameters until fifty-two milliseconds before the explosion." "We haven't found anything that suggests there was a malfunction anywhere along the line." "It is fitted with an optical reader...specially modified to read data from Starfleet isolinear chips.He can extract digital information from a computer... encode it in the form of amino-acid sequences, and transfer those sequences into a fluid in the syringe... Then he injects someone, perhaps even without their knowledge..." "Or perhaps with their knowledge..." "The information would be carried in their bloodstream in the form of inert proteins." "The body itself becomes a conveyor of top-secret files..."

Is this "The Ring"? It's the only movie I know of where watching a tape is dangerous. (Ok, spoofs of it do the same.) I saw a comic strip online where a guy is telling another guy that guys who watch this tape tend to get killed by it in a week. He then hits play. *tape*"Welcome to Martha Stewart Living." "This is going to kill me a lot faster than a week."

We discussed stages of twi history in some existing threads, of course. At one point, I attempted to set up a series of threads with eyewitness accounts from all the stages of twi. To date, I can't get an account from BEFORE vpw hijacked the hippies, but people spoke out on the others I posted. www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8329-eyewitnessestwi-from-1953-1966your-stories/ www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8336-eyewitnessestwi-from-1966-1975your-stories/ www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8380-eyewitnessestwi-1976your-stories/ www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8472-eyewitnesses1977-to-1980-your-stories/ www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8530-eyewitnesses1981-1984your-stories/ www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8699-eyewitnessestwi-1985your-stories/ www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8732-eyewitnessestwi-1986-1988your-stories/ www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8818-eyewitnesses-1989-1992-your-stories/ And this was an earlier attempt to get some thoughts down. www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/4495-rough-recollections-history-and-overview-of-twi/

BTW, I never explained this one which was answered before. The first quote is very quotable-and Picard is referring to the Enterprise-C. The second quote was the militant Picard-who will NEVER SURRENDER. This was a nice contrast. :) Mr Castillo was 2nd-in-command of the Enteprise-C. Captain Garret told him they were going back-in time. Worf discovered prune juice in this episode and considered it a warrior's drink. The book "The Klingon Way" pointed out the Klingons seem to have many bad associations with WATER. One insult is "The blood of Klingons has become water." Worf thinks swimming is "too much like bathing" and doesn't like to swim. With that in mind, Worf thinks prune juice is a fitting drink for a warrior- it is nothing like water! This is also the only episode where the Captain's log and stardate are replaced with "Military log" and "combat date", which were giveaways early on this was a different story. Ok, back to the current round....

"Villains who twirl their mustaches are easy to spot. Those who clothe themselves in good deeds are well-camouflaged." "What do you think?" "It's hard to tell. He is very closed... but...He is hiding something." "I've managed to acquire my former staff... My aide, Sabin Genestra, from Betazed, and my assistant, Nellen Tore, from Delb Two." "Are you... aware... of any other Romulan-Klingon connections that Starfleet Command might have encountered recently?" "I don't believe... what Starfleet Command knows or doesn't know is for me to reveal."

"Villains who twirl their mustaches are easy to spot. Those who clothe themselves in good deeds are well-camouflaged."

I agree with this post as stated. I have no doubts John has not seen this "premium on COMMITMENT." It's possible they're waiting to spring it on him later, but more likely they already dropped the "entry level" lower commitment stuff on him and he didn't see it. John-like myself- didn't see most of the commitment stuff when in twi. Unlike myself, I think he saw NONE of it, while I saw some but approached it differently. My thinking was "free enterprise", as even lcm said it once (but didn't mean it.) What that meant was, I was committed only to the degree that I hadn't seen anything better than twi, and would move to another group if and when they were better. I said that from the beginning and even before pfal. I maintained that position until the day I left- partly for that reason. So, when I saw a LITTLE of it, I dismissed it as isolated and not SYSTEMIC. That was later disproven, but not until I'd arrived at the GSC.

I think this was when Grand Negus Zek pretended to make Quark the new Grand Negus. I think Nog's missing homework was ON ETHICS- thus his comment. That's why I remember it at all.

"In fact it was a little bit frightening, But they fought with expert timing."

I narrowed it down to DS9. The second one sounds like Quark volunteering Rom's quarters. The first one seems vaguely familiar-I think Nog was giving excuses for not having homework-to Keiko??? I can't narrow it down past "Nog and Keiko were in this DS9 episode" yet.

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