WordWolf

After 227 pages, one might expect that.

There might be, but the Theater District in Manhattan has never been called "New York, New York" to my recollection. I give up. This one was "42nd Street" and that quote is on the top 100 most famous movie quotes. Someone else post one.

Technically, that other song was "Karn Evil 9, First Impression, Part 2." First Impression, Part 1 has the lines "Step inside, hello! We've the most amazing show..." First Impression Part 2 makes sense knowing that, since it begins "Welcome BACK my friends, to the show that never ends..." Nobody asked of course. (And I don't know the current song.) Carry on, all.

Ever seen a movie or show about the Theater District in Manhattan? Or heard a song with such a name?

"I'm sorry. You'll have to come back later. I'm doing the dishes." "Who dropped a whole truckload of fizzies into the varsity swim meet? Who delivered the medical school cadavers to the alumni dinner?" "There were blanks in that gun!" "I didn't even point the gun at him!" "Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son."

A) I like this. It works on a number of levels without adding anything useless. I think even George Mueller would have liked this. B) vpw would have reproved you. He was rather specific that you would HAVE TO "operate discerning of spirits" FIRST- and used his supposed experience where the minister was "white as a sheet" because the spirit smacked him when he tried to minister to the other person.

This one's obviously about a show, and is named after a famous place...

THIRD edition. The 1st edition mentioned a man (Stiles) but didn't name him. By the THIRD edition, he wasn't mentioned. ============== When it comes to offshoots, the more "official" versions don't mention vpw anywhere except off-the-record, and otherwise are very vague on sources like vpw. The less "official" ones often deify vpw and make him sound like when he died, he ascended to the right hand of God.

"I'm sorry. You'll have to come back later. I'm doing the dishes." "Who dropped a whole truckload of fizzies into the varsity swim meet? Who delivered the medical school cadavers to the alumni dinner?"

*grabs fire extinguisher and sprays Human w/o bean*

vpw and twi'ers in general spend too much time crowing about what they know (knew) and not enough time admitting they need to learn more. (Independent of needing to "know" some things by DOING.) One example is the teachings on David's "battle" with Goliath. The classic sling, in the hands of a trained user, is a deadly weapon- one more dangerous at close ranges than the bow and arrows. It can do more damage and subsequent shots can be launched faster. it's a cheaper weapon and more easily portable. (It lacks the longer ranges, and cannot be used from concealment, which bows and crossbows can.) Shepherds used the sling both to get the attention of a sheep (fling a stone in front of one to get his attention) and to avoid boredom (like any kid with an airgun and a tin can.) David's best chance lay with any deadly weapon he actually had experience with. However, I wouldn't have given much for the odds for any fighter using sling OR bow against a fully armored, helmed and shielded warrior preparing to close the distance and impale him on a spear. Frankly, I wouldn't give much for the chances of hitting the man in the head where the helmet was not covering, while he was moving and while he had a shield. It was akin to shooting a coin thrown into the air. Carry on, everyone. Offshoots of twi tend to retain all the toxic, harmful and dysfunctional behavior- except for specific points they address, then announce they cleaned up "EVERYTHING." So, the differences between the offshoots (splinters off the tree no matter who has run them) is the type of injury and the specific harmful teachings or behavior in use. If you want to avoid the SAME injuries people got in twi, avoid ALL the twi-trained "leaders." As someone posted once, if you want to give up gambling, you don't switch from poker to slot machines- you get out of the casino. I've seen plenty of splinters/offshoots brag about how excellent they are, and seen commercials from people who say THEIRS is the best and not harmful. And they all have been MORE harmful than a lot of local churches wherever I go.

That WAS a "delusion of grandeur." There were plenty of people who had SOME talent. In twi, the usual dash was that twi'ers were "THE GREATEST" and that they were the equal of the very best outside twi. CR was an excellent singer, but there's lots of excellent singers. Ever see the semi-finals on "American Idol" or any equivalent show, any season, any COUNTRY? There's lots of singers with an equal level of talent, and lots of singers with MORE talent. Furthermore, there's a lot of competition to even APPLY to the Metropolitan Opera Company (the House doesn't employ singers, but the Company performs at the House.) CR might even have gotten to apply. Unless she's improved dramatically, it's unlikely she would have made that PARTICULAR cut. She could probably make a career out of singing somewhere with less competition-but less fame in the name. Whatever happened to more truthful speech, like "We have some excellent people who do well and we are proud of their performance abilities. We showcase them when we have the opportunity"? But from the beginning, vpw made it twi practice that wild claims were to be used whenever they couldn't be checked for accuracy. Yeah, lcm learned to make wild claims from vpw, and was a lot more blatant and overt about it. He made some of them into policy decisions- which meant Delusions of Grandeur were making POLICY. That's a recipe for destruction. Small wonder people RAN from twi and lcm ended up in court. If twi had lesser lawyers, lcm might have spent time in prison. Yeah, making up claims nobody ever made is hard for some people to resist. When someone claimed others were saying "vpw sinned and therefore did no good", I made a poll for it and a thread. NOBODY said that was their position, even ANONYMOUSLY. BTW, please don't confuse "vpw sinned"-which is true for everybody except JC- with "vpw womanized, raped, drugged, stole, plagiarized, was an arrogant, abrasive self-serving raging alcoholic sob who pretended to be an apostle or prophet, and had delusions of godhood." Don't belittle vpw's accomplishments. vpw worked VERY HARD at womanizing, raping, theft, plagiarizing, self-service, alcoholism, and impersonation of various ministries, and worked fairly hard at the drugging and delusions of godhood. Acknowledge EVERYTHING he did-don't just cherry-pick the ones you like. (I acknowledge the ones I like and dislike, both.)

Sometimes I found the slow, meticulous study to be exciting. Not always, but sometimes. When I read I Corinthians 15 in an Interlinear for the first time, I understood it better than in the KJV. So, I reread it slower, and tried to express how exciting it was to the people around me at that moment. (I might as well have been speaking Swahili. I may have read the translation FROM the Greek, but it was still "Greek" to them.) vpw's excitement was in finding the work of others to memorize and pretend it was HIS OWN work. Mine is often in learning something new, and the difference there should be obvious. He PRETENDED that was his interest, but frauds are commonplace. ========================= In other news, I don't know if the definition of "research" as "reading again", as in "research" means "rereading everything with vpw's name on it" began with vpw, but it certainly was INSINUATED to a number of people, and after leaving twi, found a LEADER who left who suggested rereading vpw's books were always to be recommended over actually doing our own study and finding something on our own. I ignored that, because I agreed with the idea that we were supposedly learning to use the Concordance and read for ourselves, learn the principles of Bible research, etc, all so we could actually APPLY them. I imagine he'd give a different answer now, he's had a few decades to come to his senses, and lots of data has been made available.

It's not that hard for me to recognize characters named "Wolf", once I've actually seen the movie they're in. :) Plus, I remember what Marcellus Wallace looks like. This is "Pulp Fiction." The fascinating part of the movie to me is the verisimilitude of the thing. At moments, it feels like we're looking in on everyday conversations between the characters.

"Sawyer, you're going out a youngster, but you've got to come back a star!"

Oh, I'm sure he never regretted his well-orchestrated sin structures and executions of sin. What he lamented was his supposed IMPERFECTION- not that people actually were hurt, and not that he'd let down God Almighty. I was thinking of a poster here having seen vpw in the last day of his life, while he was lamenting only that he was flawed SOMEHOW but couldn't figure out HOW. And if that statement isn't proof of a Delusion of Grandeur, nothing is.

I'm sure you didn't mean that quite like it sounded to me. I was speaking of SEVERAL accounts, and fears in them that were not borne out factually. That, to me, speaks of IRRATIONAL fear. When an irrational fear is CONSISTENT among different people, that, to me, speaks of a SUPERSTITION. (If lots of people are afraid, across several countries, of something from under their bed coming to get them in their sleep, that's a SUPERSTITION. If lots of people are afraid they will have friends commit suicide over the holidays, that's a superstition. Similarly, any widespread fear contrary to evidence and based on stories passed around- that I call a "superstition." "It makes more sense that it happened exactly as it was recorded." It's recorded EXACTLY as it happened. Some people ACTUALLY heard from angels, and ACTUALLY expected that would mean they would drop dead immediately as a result. As recorded, there was no reason FROM GOD for them to think that, so they failed to receive according to their superstitious believing. Since you're challenging my claim that this is what's going on in the text, rather than just say "I think it says this" and "I disagree-it says that", let's actually look at an account or two. ======================================= (KJV unless otherwise specified) Judges 6:11-23 11And there came an angel of the LORD, and sat under an oak which was in Ophrah, that pertained unto Joash the Abiezrite: and his son Gideon threshed wheat by the winepress, to hide it from the Midianites. 12And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD is with thee, thou mighty man of valour. 13And Gideon said unto him, Oh my Lord, if the LORD be with us, why then is all this befallen us? and where be all his miracles which our fathers told us of, saying, Did not the LORD bring us up from Egypt? but now the LORD hath forsaken us, and delivered us into the hands of the Midianites. 14And the LORD looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee? 15And he said unto him, Oh my Lord, wherewith shall I save Israel? behold, my family is poor in Manasseh, and I am the least in my father's house. 16And the LORD said unto him, Surely I will be with thee, and thou shalt smite the Midianites as one man. 17And he said unto him, If now I have found grace in thy sight, then shew me a sign that thou talkest with me. 18Depart not hence, I pray thee, until I come unto thee, and bring forth my present, and set it before thee. And he said, I will tarry until thou come again. 19And Gideon went in, and made ready a kid, and unleavened cakes of an ephah of flour: the flesh he put in a basket, and he put the broth in a pot, and brought it out unto him under the oak, and presented it. 20And the angel of God said unto him, Take the flesh and the unleavened cakes, and lay them upon this rock, and pour out the broth. And he did so. 21Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the LORD departed out of his sight. 22And when Gideon perceived that he was an angel of the LORD, Gideon said, Alas, O LORD God! for because I have seen an angel of the LORD face to face. 23And the LORD said unto him, Peace be unto thee; fear not: thou shalt not die. ==================================== Ok, what happened here? An angel of the LORD, and the LORD, attempt to pass along a message (messages) to Gideon. They include "The LORD is with thee" "Thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites" and Gideon was sent by the LORD. the LORD would be with him. "Thou shalt smite the Midianites as one man." If it's really God telling you this, then you should know God's promising you'll at least be alive during the time you're carrying this out. (Come on, be logical-you can't accomplish a military victory as a corpse.) Gideon's lingering doubts centered around actually hearing from the LORD. When that was confirmed, Gideon SHOULD have known God wanted him to do stuff and expected Gideon to be alive while performing it. What was Gideon's response? AAAAAHHH! I have seen the angel of the LORD face to face! I shall now drop dead! The very next thing God had to tell him was "Peace, don't be afraid, you won't die." Was it LOGICAL for Gideon, at that point, to conclude he would drop dead as the result of seeing the angel of the LORD face to face? Gideon's premise: If I see the angel of the LORD face to face, I shall die. I have seen the angel of the LORD face to face. Conclusion: I shall die. Gideon not only did NOT die, God told him he would not die. Gideon's "logic" led to a false conclusion. Gideon's "logic" was faulty. What was "logical" about expecting to die specifically because he saw the angel of the LORD? There was NEVER an instruction to expect that. Go ahead- find one and prove me wrong- one place where God says "IF you see an angel of the LORD, you will drop dead soon after." You won't find one. It is illogical. Angels were sent to deliver messages. Messengers who killed every recipient of a message are of a very limited usefulness. =========================================== Judges 13:1-24 1And the children of Israel did evil again in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD delivered them into the hand of the Philistines forty years. 2And there was a certain man of Zorah, of the family of the Danites, whose name was Manoah; and his wife was barren, and bare not. 3And the angel of the LORD appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son. 4Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing: 5For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines. 6Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, A man of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible: but I asked him not whence he was, neither told he me his name: 7But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death. 8Then Manoah intreated the LORD, and said, O my Lord, let the man of God which thou didst send come again unto us, and teach us what we shall do unto the child that shall be born. 9And God hearkened to the voice of Manoah; and the angel of God came again unto the woman as she sat in the field: but Manoah her husband was not with her. 10And the woman made haste, and ran, and shewed her husband, and said unto him, Behold, the man hath appeared unto me, that came unto me the other day. 11And Manoah arose, and went after his wife, and came to the man, and said unto him, Art thou the man that spakest unto the woman? And he said, I am. 12And Manoah said, Now let thy words come to pass. How shall we order the child, and how shall we do unto him? 13And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah, Of all that I said unto the woman let her beware. 14She may not eat of any thing that cometh of the vine, neither let her drink wine or strong drink, nor eat any unclean thing: all that I commanded her let her observe. 15And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid for thee. 16And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the LORD. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the LORD. 17And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour? 18And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret? 19So Manoah took a kid with a meat offering, and offered it upon a rock unto the LORD: and the angel did wonderously; and Manoah and his wife looked on. 20For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground. 21But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD. 22And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God. 23But his wife said unto him, If the LORD were pleased to kill us, he would not have received a burnt offering and a meat offering at our hands, neither would he have shewed us all these things, nor would as at this time have told us such things as these. 24And the woman bare a son, and called his name Samson: and the child grew, and the LORD blessed him. Mrs Manoah was pretty level-headed. God (or the messenger thereof) gave her specific instructions as to she was to spend several years raising a child who wasn't even born. Logically, this meant God expected her to live to give birth to this child, and either raise him or arrange his raising before dying. Mrs Manoah concluded seeing an angel of the LORD meant a really accurate message since it was from God. As we see in the rest of Judges, that was what happened- which should be no surprise, since it proceeded logically from what happened. Mr Manoah, however, completely disregarded the entire message. What did Mr Manoah say? He realized he saw an angel, and said "AAAAAAHHH! I will definitely drop dead, because I saw 'God'." This was not logical- Mrs Manoah pointed that out. It also proceeded from a false premise- Seeing an angel of the LORD means one dies shortly thereafter. It happened in different places at different times, and was illogical each time. It was based on an irrational, illogical fear that was passed around. That's a superstition. Gideon and Mr Manoah had superstitious fears that never came to pass. They exhibited irrational fears. That's what the record shows.

Since this is an off-topic discussion, I made a new topic for it.

Actually, I thought he knew some of those were bs when he said them, but I think he actually conned HIMSELF by the end, when he was lamenting he was losing his eye after "never being sick a day in my life" and not even having A HEADACHE HIS ENTIRE LIFE and then going to losing an eye due to cancer, he also supposedly spent part of his final hours going over things in his head, and told someone privately that he was trying to figure out where he'd missed it somehow. His idea was his "LAW" of Believing would allow him to magically heal his body- so since it was a "LAW", something must be interfering and preventing it from acting, like someone catching an apple, preventing gravity from pulling it to the ground as it fell from a tree (my example.) If he REALLY thought all that was true, and convinced himself he could rewrite reality with force of will (without a power ring and a Green Lantern), then he actually looked back over the past few decades and was unable to find hundreds of sinful things that any sane person could identify. Since he was just talking privately to one person, I think he'd really convinced himself that what began as intentional lies were now the truth and reality reflected them.

I thought the last one was "Jurassic Park." Oh, well. Maybe I should actually SEE that movie sometime.... This one is probably the FIRST of Disney's "The Little Mermaid" movies. (As opposed to any sequel, or any version done by anyone else.)

It figures I finally check into the thread on one I know again- right after George gets it. That's Malcolm 10 all right. What?

I've really been trying to keep this thread free of wierwille's perverted errors... When he came up, I wanted him refuted, and then I wanted us to move on. Here's some of my postings... "Inadvertently, you keep presenting me with a False Dilemma between 2 choices, both of which I consider error: A) be afraid of God and serve and obey Him because the Almighty Smiter may Smite me B) be like vpw, sin like crazy, refuse to repent, and just run around with no self-control I reject the first position because I am FAR more loyal to a Loving Father whom I wish to please to make Him happy than I would be a Mighty Boss or God-Father I MUST please... or else..... I reject the second position because vpw lied completely when he claimed to respect God at all, revere or even care about Him. I'm under no restriction to lie in any way about respect, reverence, or AWE about God." "Concerning our attitude towards God, I think we all agree on PART of this. "The proper position to hold concerning God Almighty is on one's knees, in awe of His Magnificence, humble before Him and respectful to the utmost." "vpw's serious plans to sin, where he purposed in his heart to give his life over to sin, affected his doctrine and his practice, and poisoned his attitude towards God. He claimed we were supposed to respect God, but in practice he gave God's Will for vpw all the attention a dog gives a fire hydrant." "When we sin, we should feel bad, and come to God Almighty, humble and sorry we sinned." "God has made us beloved children, which doesn't change any of the above- as a child of such an awesome God, we should approach Him on our knees." "Before I go any further into this discussion, I want to know a bit more about our common ground, what we already agree on. Can we agree that vpw had neither RESPECT, REGARD nor AWE of God, and used the TRAPPINGS while not actually CARING, meaning his talk of caring about God was all talk, simply a SCRIPT to enact, a false face to wear, a mask? Can we agree that if vpw had actually respected God, he would have cared about doing things God said to do and avoiding things God said to avoid, and would have at least been making an effort to do so rather than inventing lies to claim God approved of every lust of his flesh and eyes and his pride of life? " "I think that, in part, we are agreeing on some important things. (snip) B) vpw was a depraved pervert who deceived people and abused God's people and God's Word to promote the lusts of his flesh, the lusts of his eyes, and his pride of life. In doing so, he taught perversions of many things of God (sometimes passing along some non-perversions and good teachings from others) that affect people until they are healed or recovered from his abuse." I've wanted us all to agree he and his definitions were perverted and error, so we could agree they were useless and move on WITHOUT him- but one poster keeps bringing him back into the discussion. Really-if I was doing that, wouldn't you see a pattern, and draw a conclusion by now? ======================== (I'll respond to Naten when I have more time.)

quote name='Steve Lortz' date='01 January 2012 - 03:36 AM' timestamp='1325406963' post='536257' (snip) WordWolf, you speculate as to what my be the cause of my apparent obsession with the fear of God. (snip) /quote I'm not SPECULATING anything- neither "the cause of" your "apparent obsession with the fear of God" or anything else. I said: "What I think is a problem is that Steve's understanding of the concepts of "fear" and "respect" of God were so horribly abused and raped by vpw for vpw's purposes (furthering and facilitating practices of his lusts) that Steve has spent years trying to come out from under that abuse and put both into a healthy perspective in spite of long-term exposure to a degraded perv who deserved to be put in prison for even HALF of what he did. I like Steve and I applaud his efforts, but I think he's having difficulties seeing this discussion without seeing vpw's perversion at the same time- which is understandable. I empathize and will pray for him, and offer any assistance I can give on that." Whatever else is on your mind on the subject, it's plaimly obvious to me that your posts keep circling back to refute a claim NOBODY here made and in fact, keep refuting- the dysfunctional teaching of a pervert who taught in a perverse fashion to serve HIMSELF. quote name='Steve Lortz' date='15 December 2011 - 10:16 PM' timestamp='1324005384' post='535792' (snip) Wierwille didn't like the pain of the fear of the LORD, and he didn't want to repent (arrogance), so he did his best to drown out the pain with Drambuie, and with the endorphins released through sex (he bacame a sex addict). (snip) /quote quote name='Steve Lortz' date='17 December 2011 - 09:24 AM' timestamp='1324131892' post='535848' (snip) The trust/fear of Wierwille certainly brought a snare! Love, Steve /quote quote name='Steve Lortz' date='17 December 2011 - 09:45 PM' timestamp='1324176354' post='535862' (snip) Wierwille taught that Romans 11:20b, "Be not high-minded but fear..." could not be addressed to Christians, and spun a whole segment of PFAL baloney, lying about who Romans 11:20b was addressed to. When he couldn't use that same excuse to disregard the fact that the word "fear" is addressed to Christians, such as Philippians 2:12b, "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling," he taught that it doesn't mean fear, it just means respect. Well, it does carry a sense of respect, but the fear part of it is stronger than the respect part, and is emphasized by the "and trembling [tromos = trembling, shaking, shivering with fear]." I believe that ALL the corruption, ALL the devastation, ALL the ruination, ALL the evil of TWI can be linked to the truth that Wierwille did not FEAR God, and he taught us that we shouldn't either... but that's a story for another day! Love, Steve The word of that depraved pervert keeps coming up over and over, re-introduced by you even though I keep trying to get us to agree that he was WRONG and move on completely without him or anything he ever said. I don't know ALL of what goes through your mind on this subject, but your POSTS seem to circle around a subject you can't see past- which suggests to me this is where your thinking is on this subject. (Otherwise you're putting on a performance for us-and I think your posts are 100% genuine and from the heart (and so for the rest of us so far on this thread.) (Some quote tags are broken because I couldn't get the reply to post with so many uses. So I left the data intact and removed the brackets.}

I think that, in part, we are agreeing on some important things. A) The "fear of God" is a thing that is not really a matter of being scared of God, but driven to one's knees or flat on the floor in humility before a God who deserves the most awe-stricken respect, and who COULD do things that would produce the most abject TERROR and HORROR into us, but loves us enough to limit HIMSELF and allow us to make our own choices even when we are stupid and disobedient to what are sensible instructions meant to avoid pain and suffering for us. B) vpw was a depraved pervert who deceived people and abused God's people and God's Word to promote the lusts of his flesh, the lusts of his eyes, and his pride of life. In doing so, he taught perversions of many things of God (sometimes passing along some non-perversions and good teachings from others) that affect people until they are healed or recovered from his abuse. C) The word "fear" as in "fear of God" is a broad term that encompasses BOTH what we think of as "fear" and "anxiety", and what we think of as "respect" and "awe"- but in either case, in large amounts sufficient to drive one to one's knees in humility. What I think is a problem is that Steve's understanding of the concepts of "fear" and "respect" of God were so horribly abused and raped by vpw for vpw's purposes (furthering and facilitating practices of his lusts) that Steve has spent years trying to come out from under that abuse and put both into a healthy perspective in spite of long-term exposure to a degraded perv who deserved to be put in prison for even HALF of what he did. I like Steve and I applaud his efforts, but I think he's having difficulties seeing this discussion without seeing vpw's perversion at the same time- which is understandable. I empathize and will pray for him, and offer any assistance I can give on that.

Before I go any further into this discussion, I want to know a bit more about our common ground, what we already agree on. Can we agree that vpw had neither RESPECT, REGARD nor AWE of God, and used the TRAPPINGS while not actually CARING, meaning his talk of caring about God was all talk, simply a SCRIPT to enact, a false face to wear, a mask? Can we agree that if vpw had actually respected God, he would have cared about doing things God said to do and avoiding things God said to avoid, and would have at least been making an effort to do so rather than inventing lies to claim God approved of every lust of his flesh and eyes and his pride of life?