WordWolf

CG was arrested? CG was caught doing stuff to women? Whan was this? And yes, I agree that vpw was responsible for the evil of the others, whom he trained TO perform evil acts and excuse them with pious sayings.

So, he's admitting he doesn't even have the verses on his side. That's an amazing level of candor! This is funny, coming from who it's coming from. Of all the people to criticize my understanding, it's usually the ones whose OWN understandings are shallow, easily befuddled, and locked into preconceived notions that are the quickest to accuse me of the same. As for aphorisms like using phrases like "Truth is truth" to argue against doing acts of mercy for others, I direct some of you to I Corinthians 2:4 (KJV) "And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words." This is a FASCinating verse in the Greek because of 2 words there. "Beguile". In the Greek, "paralogizomai". Not "logizomai", which is logical and follows the paths of reason, but "PARA-logizomai", like how parallel lines don't meet, and "paralogizomai" doesn't intersect with LOGIC. "Enticing words". In the Greek, "pithanologias". "Logias" are words, and we've all heard our share of "pithy sayings". They're the SLOGANS that are often confused for SOLUTIONS, ANSWERS and THINKING. So, Paul warned against people who would introduce clever slogans and nifty phrases, and try to talk people out of right action and right doctrine. Of course, some slogans are more clever than others, and some sales pitches are more effective than others.

AMAZING how this never hit me until I read this post.....

Presuming pawnbroker was right, and it's his turn... Ooo. Good one. It's "Space Seed." Khan is being gulaged on Ceti Alpha Five with his crew and NO technology. His reply as to how he felt was this line. Kirk understood, and Khan was sent down. The meaning was a quote from John Milton's "Paradise Lost." The devil claiming he preferred to reign in hell than to serve in heaven. Khan was now on a slab of rock, but now he ruled it as HIS slab of rock. I loved the way Montalban delivered some of his lines, they were just so...fun...

Allan: "V.P. is still the man that put it all together, made sense of it, " Skyrider, replying to Allan: "Not according to Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve." She gives explicit details of vpw's excitement in finding B.G. Leonard's ministry and heading up to Calgary, Alberta Canada. And, much more than just syllabus learning..........B.G. spent time with his students on the operation of the manifestations." WordWolf, replying to Allan: "'Put it all together'. Actually, the early forms were not 'put together.' They were Leonard's class with vpw's name on them." WhatTheHey, replying to WordWolf: "I would need to ask you to clarify and qualify that statement. What exactly are you implying by saying the early forms were not 'put together'?" Oakspear, replying to WhatTheHey: "I'm sure that WordWolf will be along to clarify, but while the film/video class that most of us took was different in many aspects from Leonard's class, including gifts vs. manifestations, there is much to suggest that the original class that Wierwille taught was actually Leonard's class." WordWolf now responds to WhatTheHey: Actually, my answer was in the part of the SAME SENTENCE WTH quoted. vpw's original class was NOT original. It was BG Leonard's class with vpw's name on it. vpw took BG Leonard's class (June 28-July 15, 1953.) October 1953, vpw told BG Leonard he wanted to teach Leonard's class locally on a one-time basis. LEONARD's class, as he told Leonard. Leonard agreed. vpw ran the class, and sent Leonard a photograph of Leonard's class, which sits in Leonard's photo album to this very day. What vpw told the STUDENTS was that this was vpw's class on "RECEIVING THE HOLY SPIRIT TODAY". (Later changed to pfal.) NO mention of Leonard or Leonard's class. Even if it's not obvious to you that there would be no time to completely change Leonard's class, the testimony of those who had sat thru Leonard's class and THEN vpw's class might mean something. vpw counted those who had taken Leonard's class in the June 28-July 15 class as ALREADY GRADS of the "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today" class. Therefore, vpw, by several measures, called them the same class with 2 different names. Therefore, vpw did not "put it together." He put his own name on Leonard's class. ======= Since you're also haggling over prices, I should add the following: Yes, Leonard's class is more than you paid for the pfal foundational class. Of course, Leonard's class was taken by vpw and padded out to ALL THREE pfal levels-foundational, intermediate and advanced. Thus, you're comparing Leonard's price for all three against the price for ONE, which is an inequitable measure. When you compare Leonard's price against ALL THREE, Leonard's appears to be an incredible bargain. Especially for those people who were talked into paying $100 or $200 for pfal... ========= Leonard also set his class as a supplement to existing ministries. He intended for people to bless their normal ministries after taking his class. Leonard never set up a structure and church (nor did he expect 10% of their income or anything else...) Now, those who think that any class is not a good thing, they can dislike Leonard's class consistently. Others of us don't think a class is automatically right or automatically wrong. We DO object to making a class into something other than a tool- turning it into a Rite of Passage and a REQUIREMENT is FAR different from what Leonard did.

Based on Howard's own comment on the document (about "the man I helped kill"), the doctrinal spin IN PoP (where Chris insisted vpw would rise from his deathbed with his L337 believing skillz if only he had a cheering section) and the congruence with foundational twi doctrine (Blue Book, first 4 chapters, Session I, pfal), I think that CG believed (like a good fanatic) that vpw WAS a super-believer and COULD do just that, heard from the fading vpw how he was replaced and dismissed at hq, believed (like a good fanatic) that this was tantamount to Israel rejecting Moses, and believed that the people who ignored him as good as pulled the trigger on a gun, since they failed to render aid which would have enabled his super-believing to throw off the effects of the cancer/kryptonite. CG then went to them, and spun the whole story, which blamed them in exactly that fashion. Since it matched twi doctrine and vpw's own media manipulation of his image, and CG was completely sincere, they all bought it. Thus, they then believed their failure to prostrate themselves before vpw once he was out of office led directly to his death of his encroaching cancer by failing to stop it. They then made their public statements. Later, they had their "what a minute!" moments (smaller versions of the ones that got us out of twi), and stopped blaming themselves for something they had virtually no effect on. So, in this case, I agree with WhiteDove. (Is that the sound of the encroaching Apocalypse I hear?) Interesting thought. On the one hand, vpw indulged in all that himself. On the other hand, CG saw him as entitled to rape and commit felonies and feed his vices because he was the MOG. So, it was wrong for EVERYONE ELSE, maybe. Maybe he thought they'd shake loose some heinous actions by admission. Hopefully, without shining a light on the innocent blood staining HIS hands....

Is that "Lord of War"?

Vic Fontaine never flubs his songs. That was Rom auditioning FOR Vic Fontaine. Right. "The Siege of AR-558." ("Platoon" in space.) That's the one where Nog GETS the leg injury. Aron Eisenberg thought his character was going to die in this one. Your turn, George!

That's a shame-it was one of Armin Shimmerman's favourite scenes. "I'm sorry captain, but I'm an engineer, not a magician." ""They're not just names, we have to remember that. We have to remember that..." "Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, Nog. They're a wonderful, friendly people — as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts ... deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers ... put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time ... and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people will become as nasty and violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon. You don't believe me? Look at those faces, look at their eyes..." ""We held." "Those were our orders, sir." ""The communications relay, it was worth it, right?" "I hope to God it was." "..that's why the laaady is a scamp...."

Correct! I've thought about using that one on and off since I posted "the Immigrant Song." Those of you who forgot what song that is should turn your sound on and click to http://www.vikingkittens.com In the tradition of "Who's Line", I'm giving Bluzeman 12 points for the album. Go, Bluzeman!

Someone who saw vpw in his final days/hours saw vpw claim he was trying hard to figure out where he slipped-up so that his believing couldn't save his life. Perhaps he was maintaining the fiction to the end, and knew it was all a lie. Personally, I think he'd bought so completely into his own press that he really thought he could just super-believe and his health would flash back into existence. As vpw himself said, the salesman who sells you the toothbrush with only one bristle on it has got to be real sincere if he's going to sell them.

You're entitled to your own opinion. You're welcome to post it here. We're welcome to disagree. Don't think anyone here's immune to it. Do you think I ever have a day immune to disagreement? Frankly, the freedom to disagree often helps sharpen my ability to communicate. If I can phrase my positions with documentation, clarity, and good manners, I get fewer disagreements. Ever learn something from the people disagreeing with you? I've done that plenty of times, especially here. It's good for personal growth.

Ok, I checked and I'm right. I was going to bring us a lot more current, but the whiplash would be painful, so I'm not making such a big jump. "Friends, did you get a little silver? Did you get a little gold? What did you bring me, my dear friends,"

"SHE'S NOT THERE." The Zombies. (Not to be confused with Rob Zombie.) Is it my imagination, or is this one of those songs with a harmonica in it?

Let's see, how many assumptions can I find in one sentence?A) A course/class/programme/seminar is REQUIRED. Jesus didn't have one, neither did Paul/ B) pfal delivered info/understanding. It also taught a specific mindset/ set of doctrines never to be questioned. C) pfal was time-efficient. As someone pointed out, we could have shaved off at least one segment per night if we just trimmed out all the jokes. vpw padded it with insults to other Christians, and old jokes. I don't compare fish and bicycles, and I don't compare the intents of pfal and the GSC. It would show a lack of understanding to confuse them. "Put it all together". Actually, the early forms were not "put together." They were Leonard's class with vpw's name on them. Adding Bullinger's and Stiles' books to them -without legally-required acknowledgements and honoring of copyright- does not count as "putting it together" to most of us. What all of them taught/wrote ALREADY "made sense." vpw did a cut-and-paste." Further, his later attempts to make them look less like the originals made LESS SENSE. Leonard's definition of "word of knowledge" makes a LOT more sense than the much wordier definition vpw made out of it. "Got it heading somewhere." Leonard was already being recognized in Canada AND the US. vpw stealing his class entirely HOBBLED Leonard's class, since it produced the result of Leonard holding his class more closely rather than risk more thieves calling themselves "Christians" stealing it all and using it to carve their own denominations. That's right-Leonard sent people back to their local groups with enhanced knowledge, but vpw made his own denomination. "Delivered many many people." We have had separate discussions as to whether than can be applied to a class that was stolen from others, and whose end-result was to chain them to a group that told them what to think and do, and demanded 10% of their income. Some say that the legitimate material was the bait on the hook. "About 50,000 others?" Actually, about that many may have finished the class worldwide. For a worldwide group, that's almost nonexistent, divided over a 50-year period. And whether or not they benefitted overall-I already addressed that. My, my, so many misconceptions all squeezed into one paragraph! That's a rather compact style of writing, there!

It may well sound Picard-like, but he's not Picard. "I'm sorry captain, but I'm an engineer, not a magician." ""They're not just names, we have to remember that. We have to remember that..." "Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, Nog. They're a wonderful, friendly people — as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts ... deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers ... put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time ... and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people will become as nasty and violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon. You don't believe me? Look at those faces, look at their eyes..."

See, that's the catch. A lot of people did very different things, and all thought they were "upholding scripture." And thought that they were "paying the price" to do so.

When posting the names of people, please don't include their FULL name here unmarked. Substitute "*" or numbers or things so that they don't come up under searches. Otherwise, someone doing a websearch, say, on J!m D00p's name will find every time you mentioned his name.

You're way off.

"I'm sorry captain, but I'm an engineer, not a magician." ""They're not just names, we have to remember that. We have to remember that..."

Correct. That particular attempt was him in a housecoat and slippers, up on a hill, testing the wind, then using a hang-glider to try to fly clear. Hawkeye AND Trapper both gave that description of his appearance in that attempt. Go, Ca Dreaming!

I forgot that would make it my turn. "Did you see that?" "What did you see?" "Looked like a big, red bird with fuzzy pink feet."

You're standing in it. This is that thread.

It might have been your area. They were actually using that term in the 80s, but I didn't connect it with Halloween. I think there was a decision among the local leaders not to encourage the term because it was f'ing lame. Then again, in NYC, we had entire territories where 95% or more left when lcm drew his line in the sand, so it's not expected that EVERYTHING he said was blindly followed in the years and months leading up to that. I think Thanksgiving and New Year's were the only holidays they didn't touch. April Fool's Day, of course, was already named FOR lcm....

Here's another thread on Howard...